Printable View
Hello,
Been a while since I got to post here and I wanted to get some input from others.
I have often been told that the elbow for Bong/Taun and Fook should never collapse.
I wanted to see if this was something everyone agreed with or if anyone thought there may be a time when it was okay to collapse the elbow for Taun Sau, for example.
So please provide your thoughts along with the reasoning behind them.
Thanks in advance.
Morning Dave.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sihing73
Well, to say a hand should 'never' collapse is, perhaps, implying (under certain circumstances of course) that the hand may be fighting force with force too much; or a timing was off; or perhaps less than optimal structure. Having said that, if it is 'collapsing', then ideally this indicates it is on its way to strike! (and that is a good thing. :D )
Hi Dave...I don't belive in absolute like the tan or any other hand should never collapse. What I think is meant is with correct structure these structures should be very strong, but IMO everything has a limit..if I put a car on top of your Bong Sau I don't care how good your structure is its going to collapse. All these a structures should be flexible yet strong at the same time..Quote:
Originally Posted by Sihing73
Really the answer to your question depends on what WC operating system [what family] you are using. In a generic answer- no you should not collapse your "bridge" [tan bon and fook] because that will lead the opponent's hand into your body and thats No Bueno. And the general consensus is your elbow position should be maintained a fist and a half away from your body otherwise you are "chuck Q" [wrong spelling I know]. For the most part that is the standard protocol in most families. And it all works fine when you're playing "yang" WC.
However WC has a feminine or "Yin" side. What a serendipitous moment it must have been for the female founder to instinctively protect her breast by placing her elbow and arm into the centerline only to discover this "elbow in"placement also provides angulation to transmit total body mass through her legs into her opponent in a wedge like fashion with minimal upper body strength during a strike. A new operating system different than Shaolin had emerged -"elbow in technology".
Against a really strong opponent, a physically weaker individual may not be able to hold their bridge using "Yang" hands against another WC player even while trying to roll the chung chi [heavy compression] off during a look sao. The solution: tan bon and fook have their "Yin" side where each one can totally collapse or more accurately "retract" and follow the opponent's heavy hand while you get your body out of the way and reposition yourself to a better position also using the retracting movement to "load" your arm for a strike. Thats the "Yin" side of real WC. Think of tan and bon moving backwards or even laterally during the sil lim tao form, along with the wu sao moving backwards after the hun sao. A little "pushing without pushing" action here [for more on this read my pushing without pushing story] using WC's "spring energy". So the answer is YES its ok if your using the tan in that fashion, IMO.
Hello,
Thanks for the replies.
I was thinking of, since I also practice Silat, of using th Taun to collapse and draw an opponent into a position advantageous to me.
I have had some good luck doing this and like it. Was curious to see what others think.
As to the structure, I think that Wing Chun should be soft so it should always flow and change.
Bong never stays comes to mind.
Hi Dave, been a while. Hope you're doing well. I can only guess what happened to this forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sihing73
Please give an example of how you draw your opponent in with your collapsing tan. I'm interested.
Only get on sporadically.
Let me see if I can get something on video to provide an example.
All of Wing Chun's tools are designed to collapse into a new tool.
Hello,
Since I will most likely not get anything on video anytime soon I will try to explain how I collapse my Taun to draw my opponent in. I am no longer teaching as I live in a rural area and it is difficult to get any students as I live in the country, and I love it here.
Anyhow, when the Taun connects with an incoming punch the usual way is to turn the body as a result of the energy given by the opponent. Their force is what makes you turn or shift, you do not do it on your own. In most instances the angle of the elbow will remain essentially the same and this is where the idea of not collapsing comes in. This is fine but it will keep the distance between yourself and the opponent essential the same. Oh, I realize that if you turn a great degree there will be some decrease in distance but the structure of the elbow will still maintain a degree of distance between you and the opponent.
Now sometimes I will allow the energy to push my Taun right up to my chest. I will still turn but I let the opponents punch get to where it is almost laying on my body. With a turn the fist will still pass by you and not strike you. I am not simply letting the punch come up against my chest it is still important to turn or shift so that if the punch does get through it will be angled off to the side. Not sure if I am explaining this correctly but hope you get the idea.
Anyhow, with the punch being so close to you but still angled to miss, the opponent can be drawn in and you will be very close to them. If you do this right you will be outside of their optimum power zone but they will be right within yours. You can slip the punch and come up underneath or several other options if this is done correctly. One option is to drop underneath the incoming arm and apply a choke with his arm being pressed up from underneath. Of course you can also strike them a variety of ways as well.
For me the power zone refers to the area between your shoulders with both arms extended forward to a point where they meet. This would form a triangle and your strongest point is in the are of the triangle formed. I like to keep my opponent inside my triangle while getting myself outside of theirs.
The main reason for me to do something like this is to eliminate space between myself and the opponent. I have found that if I apply this idea during Chi Sau I, depending on the skill of my partner, can make them lose balance and give me a momentary advantage.
Not saying this is some great secret or that it would work all of the time. But, it is something I have played with and found that I like. Of course, I also have incorporated the concepts of a rising punch as well as doublehand techniques which are also fun, for me at least.
I would disagree with the idea of always collapsing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marnetmar
While I am a firm believer in being soft and reacting to the energy given, I also feel it is important to maintain structure so that you do not just collapse.
There are certainly times when you will want to give way but there are other times when the very structure of your technique will direct your opponent.
For example, while Bong Sau never stays, if you simple allow it to collapse you will end up getting hit.
When I use the term collapse I am referring to intentionally giving up space to bring my opponent closer to me.
In doing so I still strive to maintain structure and I guess the best way to explain it is that if the incoming energy is greater than what my structure can bear then my structure will change to accommodate the energy given. If unable to flow into another technique then I may very well collapse and try to draw them in.
What is important to me is to not simply collapse but to collapse into something which I can still use to counter with.
Does this make sense???
Let me ask you this;
What is Taun designed to "collapse" into?
Good question, Dave. I've been away from this forum for a long time, so it's nice to stop back in and see that good discussion still happens here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sihing73
Now to the topic. From my perspective, the WC tan-sau doesn't collapse so much as compress, and typically only becomes another tool, as Marnetmar stated above, when it's released or slips free and becomes a strike. That's just loi lau hoi sung, lat sau jik chung in application. I thought your description above expressed this concept nicely.
On the other hand, one possible way tan compresses, collapses and changes into a new tool is when it's used to parry a higher level straight shot that follows through. Then the tan can stick, rising up and fold at the elbow with, with the elbow rising vertically and the palm brushing alongside your head like "combing your hair". This can be followed with a downward chopping or hammering #1 strike or you can step inside and strike with the rising elbow. Oh wait... is this beginning to sound like FMA or Silat? My bad. lol.