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So true, especially when you spar for the first time.
the worst one is when you've been sparring for about ten minutes already, and along comes some behemoth and you just think
"balls"
NO, NO, NO.Quote:
Originally posted by Ikken Hisatsu
the worst one is when you've been sparring for about ten minutes already, and along comes some behemoth and you just think
"balls"
The worst is when you have to spar multiple opponents and you look at the queue waiting next to the mat-area and realise that the last one is YOUR Sifu and he is grinning with delight.
;)
What do you think about mixing these together?
Do you think it's OK to make students practice or least observe Buddhism in order to study at a particular school?
Want to hear your comments.........
Hi ED,
Having a spiritual outlook is definitely a plus in martial arts. Martial sports really don't need to have a spiritual outlook although a martial sports person such as Ali has a powerful spiritual outlook that some would even think of him as a latter day prophet. ;) Once upon a time in America, Ali has a beautiful mind. It is sad that he could not carry on his God's work today.
Personally, I believe that spiritual outlook is the difference between a technician and a master of an art. BTW, there are 2 approaches to apply spirtiual outlook in MA. One route is through philosophical discipline (reasoning) while the other is mystical discipline (meditation).
I tell stories about all religions although I use them main as parables. In a form such as 18 Luohan, I have at least 18 stories that I can tell just to help my students to graspe the imagaries. My favorite is the 5th road "Yasha (demon) probing the ocean". It could lead to many of the Chinese mythology which always draws their attention.
I am of the opinion that if they understand my spiritual outlook they will have the benefit of understanding how I function. In that case, we will communicate much better. I have not intention of making spiritual duplicates of myself. So I don't require my students to take upon any spiritual outlook.
A great topic there, my friend. :)
Warm regards
Mantis108
Religion is all about killing people who disagree with you.
MA is all about how to kill people.
It's a match made in Heaven! (pun intended)
lol
good one
In all seriousness, that is a personal thing. If someone wants to mix the two then they should be allowed to. If they only wish to practice the martial aspects without religious aspects, then they should be allowed to do so. No one should be forced to practice any of the religious aspects of the CMA.
i agree...I don't think anyone should be forced to anything...but if you don't understand the spiritual roots of your art/s, just don't think you're really studying it
True, however understanding the spiritual roots and practicing them are two different things.Quote:
Originally posted by blooming lotus
i agree...I don't think anyone should be forced to anything...but if you don't understand the spiritual roots of your art/s, just don't think you're really studying it
Since your school is a voluntary, private group, it seems within your rights to restrict membership by any arbitrary standard you please.Quote:
Originally posted by EarthDragon
Do you think it's OK to make students practice or least observe Buddhism in order to study at a particular school?
That said, I would personally be extremely uncomfortable with a martial arts instructor who forced religous beliefs on their students, even if I happened to agree with them; and recommend ardently against it.
I think as long as you understand those roots..it's all good and irrelevant if you subscribe or not......
Hell no its not right! what kind of stupid cr@p is that?Quote:
Originally posted by EarthDragon
Do you think it's OK to make students practice or least observe Buddhism in order to study at a particular school?
No one made me observe a religion to take math or science, why should it be required from a ma school? Utter B/S.
Oh, as far as understanding roots goes, those roots only go so deep. I fully agree with understanding the origin, but making folks practice is more than a bit too much.
Very good posts.
The argument is the other way around.
You study MA to defend yourself and not be harmed. You save life and serve justice.
If you practice Daoism (Wu Dang) and Shaolin Zen Buhhdism, you need to study MA so as to complete or help your spiritual learning.
Use Zen meditation to enter the world of Wushu. So that Zen and Quan are one and the same. (Zen Quan Her Yi)
As a matter of fact, you may practice or not practice religions.
But, all that Wushu learning will not help us, if we do not know how to be/make a "man" in the first place. That is why all schools of Wushu are tightly bundled with certain "disciplines" (life philosophy or religion).
Again, it is your choice for the enlightment for your own being (consciousness or Zen).
Greetings..
Historical knowledge of religious connections to the Arts is relevant.. but, dogmatic instruction of a particular belief system during MA class is not likely to be well received.. to insist that an MA student receive religious instruction is contrary to rational thought.. If you choose to offer religious instruction as a separate class with no expectation that a student must accept "your" beliefs, that's fine.. In fact, the walls could be adorned with the Sifu's choice of religious references as long as there is no expectation that free-thinking students adhere to that belief system.. If the Sifu insists that students adhere to a particular belief system, then call it a church, not a Kwoon..
Although i don't personally claim any single "religion", i do find Taoist Philosophy to be the most closely aligned with my understanding of "Life".. i offer tidbits of Taoist wisdoms during class, but only as it relates to a particular lesson or as it connects in a historical context.. Separate from MA class, i host a Taiji Club where i tailor the study of Taiji from the Taoist perspective, i also welcome contributions of other "philosophies".. i tend to reject formal religions as unnecessary rituals that distract us from the experience they claim to be seeking, including "Religious Taoism".. Religious Taoism is contrary to its own philosophy, but.. that's another story..
I have found that some of the principles of Internal Arts conflict with some people's religious or philosophical or scientific beliefs.. and i respect their beliefs by counseling them to simply accept the lessons in whatever context they are comfortable with.. i have always been able to neutralize any religious conflicts.. In the Muay Thai Class where the uniform requires shorts, some religions forbid the exposure of the legs, so we let the student put shorts on over long pants.. situation neutralized..
The choice is simple, do you want to be a preacher or a Martial Arts instructor.. if you choose to expect students to adhere to your particular belief system, it should be stated up front and the corresponding loss of revenue accepted as a consequence of that choice..
Just my own perspective of things.. Be well..
All excellent replies,
The reason I asked is that one of my former students opened a school and although she is jewish she is using a buddhist temple for backing. She has a life size statue in the front window and from the outside it looks more like a place of worship than a place to train. This puzzels me and I am trying to understand her intentions and motive. So I thought I would bring this up to the many knowledgable friends I have on this forum.
I am still under the impression she is using religion to market her school to make up for the incompleteness of her training. She had only trained with me a short time and never ranked and higher than middle road beginner, then went on to learn a little here and a little there. She weighs 112 lbs and teaches wrestling to male adults but does not get on the mat?????????????
hhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmm
No, it's not necessary. I understand the buddhist ties most CMA have but it's not necessary to learn to fight. On the other hand, students usually have a choice of schools to go to, and if not, it suck sbut you don't have to go to a school taht's going to make you study a religion of any sort.Quote:
Do you think it's OK to make students practice or least observe Buddhism in order to study at a particular school?
:confused:Quote:
Originally posted by SPJ
If you practice Daoism (Wu Dang) and Shaolin Zen Buhhdism, you need to study MA so as to complete or help your spiritual learning.
no
Sounds great!Quote:
Originally posted by EarthDragon
All excellent replies,
The reason I asked is that one of my former students opened a school and although she is jewish she is using a buddhist temple for backing. She has a life size statue in the front window and from the outside it looks more like a place of worship than a place to train. This puzzels me and I am trying to understand her intentions and motive. So I thought I would bring this up to the many knowledgable friends I have on this forum.
I am still under the impression she is using religion to market her school to make up for the incompleteness of her training. She had only trained with me a short time and never ranked and higher than middle road beginner, then went on to learn a little here and a little there. She weighs 112 lbs and teaches wrestling to male adults but does not get on the mat?????????????
hhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmm
(hangs head, cries)
ED-
It is called "co-opting" and this is practiced by ignorant dirtbags on a daily basis.
If I was a buddhist, which I'm not because I refuse to subscribe to any particular group other than "human being" I would be deeply offended by your friends attempts to use imagery sacred to one groupd to make money and sell a service.
that's just my opinion, along with the opinion that your friend is a di.ck
cheers
Greetings..
is it possible that the "imagery" of...Quote:
I would be deeply offended by your friends attempts to use imagery sacred to one group
..might be offensive to others.. ? Perhaps, someone can be ignorant without being a "dirtbag"..Quote:
ignorant dirtbags
How is it that we can complain of offensive imagery on one hand.. and use offensive language on the other?...Quote:
your friend is a di.ck
Just an observation of the normal inconsistency in certain thought processes.. not intended to start flaming..
Be well....
Responding the :confused:
You are right, religious Daoism and Buddhism do not require MA learning.
I was refering to the old days. The Daoists on Wu Dang Shan and the monks in Shaolin temple, they studied MA. Again not every body was required. In fact, if your mindset or heart is not ready, you are forbidden to study MA. Even if you did learn and later you did something wrong, The Discipline Yuan (Jie Liu Yuan) will punish you with hard labor and staff hitting, to the point of to "destroy" your Wushu and kicking you out of the temple.
Taichibob: good post.
The separation of state and the church.
However, the teacher has some responsiblity of the moral understanding of the students. although not enforcing a religion, it would be nice to have a certain code of ethics (Wu De).
I like the idea of declaring the religion of the teacher on the walls.
lol @ bob
I'm me and I'm not the one putting buddha in teh window to sell buddha cookies and BS.
For me, I can only walk the world and kick away at what bugs me with no remorse for my actions. Remorse is hindsight afterall, if you didn't mean to do it, then you wouldn't have done it in teh first place.
Circular logic is bullsh.it, I avoid it in matters that have meaning.
cheers
you mean you avoid logic, all together KL, be honest.Quote:
Circular logic is bullsh.it, I avoid it in matters that have meaning.
red5, you avoid reality.
yer @ss is starting to look like a belgian waffle dude. better get one of those feral hillbilly kids to pry you out of that hammock soon. lord knows you might squish yer two-four of twinkies if ya gotta do it yerself. hyuk yuk.
I love how you enter any thread i'm in to fling some more of your particular brand of nonsense.
I feel like I have a fan... who enjoys being beaten.
I'm honoured stoopid san.
:D
actually, if you'll notice (it goes back to that whole paying attention thing again) I posted in this thread before you, so wouldn't that be you following me around?
And just because you don't pay attention and apparently need a reminder, I have vowed to fight your special kind of stupidity, remember? My holy war against the dumb that is Kung Lek.
Kung Lek,
I never said "my friend" actually it is an old student who quit 8 step after just 9 months, studied some where else for 9 more , then opened thier own school.
Also he is a she and when I heard that she was teaching 8 step without my permission I told her to not advertise 8 step because she wasnt qualified to teach, so she changed and advertised 7* without having learned 7* mind you , so NO she is not a friend but rather a throrn in my side, and becuse of her lack of knowledge, I feel she is compensating with buddhism to come across as tradtional. I even read a post from her student that quoted her as "very tradtional" which to me seems extremly far from the truth
Don't flatter yourself.Quote:
Originally posted by Kung Lek
I refuse to subscribe to any particular group other than "human being"
I haven't read the whole thread yet, but to drop my two copper coins, religion shouldn't be forced on a student. That's why we have churches, temples, etc. I being christian do not want bhuddism forced on me. I'm all for learning about other things, but I can read up on it in my spare time.
Greetings..
SPJ:
I think (IMHO) that the study of fighting systems should not be referred to as an Art untill several concepts/disciplines are introduced, not the least of which is "Ethics"..
Kung Lek:
.. Please explain, it seems that "circular logic" is applicable to your position on this matter of .. it's okay to offend others if they have offended someone else.. or, "if you didn't mean to do it, then you wouldn't have done it in teh first place".. you kind of overlook innocent ignorance.. IMHO kindly educating someone to the nuances of cultural etiquette would have a more lasting and more beneficial effect than harsh words and character bashing.. anyway, i am only hoping to see this issue from a different perspective, i don't normally "kick the things that bug me", i try to see if i can find a common ground or help change a situation that could avoid even more misunderstandings..Quote:
Circular logic is bullsh.it, I avoid it in matters that have meaning.
Be well...
'Most' monks/priests/whatever were not fightin' machines in the 'old days' either.Quote:
Originally posted by SPJ
Responding the :confused:
You are right, religious Daoism and Buddhism do not require MA learning.
I was refering to the old days.
unko-
which one of the idiots are you representing with the new handle now?
can you be more transparent possibly?
lamo.
ED, i realize you were refering to a she, you stated it early on in the thread.
I think it is cheap and dirtbaggish to do such a thing and that's where I stand. Let it go and don't endorse her at all. if people come asking in regards to lineage, then respond exactly as you have responded here.
Bob-
the zen way is to "just be" there is no evil, there is no good, things just are and we can point em out however we like. How you think about me makes no difference anymore than anyone else.
I will continue to think and do as I am compelled by the forces of the universe that spark to move this flesh and bone around.
cheers
Quote:
Originally posted by Kung Lek
unko-
which one of the idiots are you representing with the new handle now?
can you be more transparent possibly?
lamo.
This is the brilliant discourse of which you are so proud? Impressive.
Agreed.:)Quote:
'Most' monks/priests/whatever were not fightin' machines in the 'old days' either.
Earth Dragon:
That is tough. A "runaway" student. Being a teacher, you somehow have to guide her in the right path. Because whatever your student said or did does reflect on you.
If people ask for her reference, you may say yes she was once your student, however, she still has a long way to go for her study.
To teach a student to study MA is tough. To teach a student to be a righteous person is even tougher. In the end, she is still your student. In other words, your teaching is not finished yet. however, it is up to her if she wants to continue her learning or not. Otherwise, you may only give her partial credit for her incomplete study.
Taichibob:
I agreed totally.
Greetings...
I tend to agree, largely, with the above quote, except.. "however we like".. although there is no good/evil, there are consequences.. good/evil are merely labels of desirability, consequences, however, may cause others to stumble or be misled on their journey.. to use antagonistic or harsh language could cause more harmful consequences than the self-gratifying benefit gained by the individual choosing to engage in such dialogue..Quote:
the zen way is to "just be" there is no evil, there is no good, things just are and we can point em out however we like.
My personal philosophy, and that which i include in my teaching philosophy is, "do no harm", except in the defense of self and others..
Although the "forces of the Universe" may provide the energy and raw material for the "flesh and bone", choice and deed are the signatures of your individual consciousness.. what you "continue to think and do" is how you choose to define yourself in the eyes of others.. I thank the universe for the oportunity to use this Body and Mind, but.. i take full responsibility for the actions and deeds as directed by my consciousness (spirit, for those inclined to see past the confines of logical structure)..Quote:
I will continue to think and do as I am compelled by the forces of the universe that spark to move this flesh and bone around.
Be well.. (good dialogue, thanks)..
I've seen a few different contextualizations of Wu Wei, but "kick away what bugs you" is a new one. Now that I think about it though, I may remember something like that in the Surangama Sutra: 'Meditation on the Faculty of Arbitrary Hostility.' Yeah; sounds reasonable.
SPJ,
very insightful, I sometimes need to remember that being a teacher is a life long responsibility. I tend to not put effort into my runaway students as you called them. I do put 100% attention on my active students. I have taught 100's over the years so I think I almost have to cut them loose. I do respect your post though in a special way. thank You ED
On the flip side,
We receive numerous letters and emails every year from people wanting us to teach them to "enter the Buddha." We had a guy in military prison at Ft. Sill asking to become a disciple and learn the path to enlightenment. We do not, in any way shape or form, advertise or teach anything Buddhist in association with the school.
In America, people are begging for something to believe in. Some people are willing to give it to them, for a buck or two.