http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=115628
See what happens when I go on vacation?
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http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=115628
See what happens when I go on vacation?
Yep it is. He created these forms that taught the fundamentals of his system. He then says he also taught the material he was taught by his teacher. If he was up front about this it wouldn't have been a big deal, but as it was passed off has traditional it calls into question everything that was ever taught.
The interesting thing is that some people had to hear it in court in order to believe it while many others could spot if a mile away.
I don't have a problem with him making up forms, but be honest about it.
One of the things about people in general is that they think that just because something is old it is better than a similar thing that is new, but just as with everything else in life, buyer beware!
A form should be judged on its own merits not on its age.
I'm thinking of someone else who made it all up, too.
He says he copy writed 29 forms that he created up until around 1990 then he created 40 or 50 more forms after that. I think that might be almost everything up to 5th black, with the exception of the internal material. He says he is teaching traditional shaolin at His seminars but doesn't say he learned these forms from Ie or other sources.
Who Gives a Rats Ass?
I do not condone presenting fraudulant / made up material as true and authentic forms from a given system.
However, if you have enough skill and understanding of the theory and principles of your given system, the forms or material you make up your self will in itself be a represenative of the system, will it not?
I made up a small practice drill / form for my childrens curriculum. Am I fruadulently representing my system?
Really... who cares what other people do. Some of you guys argue about the most stupid and irrelavant MA tyopics.
ginosifu
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_dental_fricative
You have to appreciate the irony that after all the effort put forth by The to maintain the romantic wuxia illusion of lineage among his followers as soon as his ability to profit from it is in jeopardy he readily admits to fabricating a majority of the material.
LOL!! Now THAT is funny!
I wonder if that includes the thousand 9 yellow bee's (or whatever) form?
I think we can now confidently say Shaolin-Do is not "for real".
Nothing is real.
I think we made that clear in the "all is mind" concept.
Everything we do, is a personal pursuit. It doesn't necessarily have overarching meaning to the world or the species, it just is.
10,000 years will pass and all we have done today will be no more and will not even be a memory.
5000 years have passed in written human history, how much did we carry forward with us? Mere fragments of what was.
It's important to understand this I think. :)
or, in a nutshell...All is impermanent.
I was just thinking this thread doesn't have enough subjective idealism sophistry.
Me? You think I'm a nihilist? How the heck would you gather that? :confused:
From the statement "nothing is real"? Because that was contextual to the discussion. Also, it's true in context to this thread.
If I was a nihilist. I wouldn't be here in this discussion at all!
We walk one step at a time.
We learn how to fight one move or one technique at a time.
Why so hung up on forms or kata?
In 7 star mantis, there will be so many kata. But only a few are well known and practiced by all.
I was so bummed by so many kata from old style of chen tai ji. There are so many kata or same kata practiced with different focuses/frames.
I ended up just learn one well.
I break kata up and practice one posture at a time.
I may string a few together and practice.
but each to his or her own.
All my short forms or any forms "new"? probably not.
We may make up a form anytime by placing a few moves together.
Why the fuss?
:confused:
Because it isn't what it was represented to be. It is a lie.
The material is solid fundamental material. It teaches the basic of punching, kicking, locking, throwing, stances, weight trasnfer, power generation, evasion, countering, blocking etc. It is very good foundation material for learning martial arts.
But it was passed off as traditional and it is not. That's a big deal.
I will teach my children this material, but I will tell them the truth about its origins.
um...
seriously?
I mean, really? you actually are surprised to learn that it's not an "authentic" Shaolin-based art? I mean, it looks nothing like it, the entire story behind it is so obviously BS, and people on here w legitimate Shaolin-art lineage have been debunking it for years;
and you are surprised he fabricated it?
wow...
It is difficult when you finally understand you have probably wasted a lot of time and have foolishly invested in something that you thought was something else.
In all likelihood, you will seek a way to justify the loss and maybe even twist it into a gain.
But that's ok, you just have to realize that all is mind and authentic only means "old and almost forgotten" most of the time.
Shaolin is big. What's at the temple now is not what was there originally or even 80 years ago.
But then, western boxing isn't like it was 80 years ago either.
I don't know what authentic shaolin is supposed to look like. Especially from the Fukien temple, assuming it existed. Shaolin Do IMO, did show "flags" of what may be hodge podge passed off as traditional material from a single or focused source. Perhaps there was something at the core that Sin The' learned in Indonesia that was Shaolin originated, even if it was only a few sets or drills.
CMA is global now, there is quite a bit of diversity even within same "styles". Science and access to information has led to correction of alot of folk tales, errant, and mis-information that has been propagated for hundreds of years now about some histories of different styles, or systems, or lineages, but there is still alot that cannot be verified or disproved yet.
So, what does finally hearing from the horse's mouth that Shaolin Do was, in part, or all, fabricated bring to the CMA community? What does it bring to the KFM Forum community? I don't know, but I assume it effects the vast majority the same, and thiat ultimately is, really not at all.
I guess I don't get how finding out that the source of something is a lie necessarily equals time spent training the stuff was a waste. I can see how that might be true depending on the goal when the training was undertaken but I don't think it flows by logical necessity.
I think I've even seen you say that it doesn't really matter where stuff comes from; it can still be effective and Shaolin-derived. I'm paraphrasing so forgive my inaccuracies.
I do think the folks on here that are trying to interpret what's happened as not deceiving are either being apologists or are refusing to see the facts.
Fact: there are some things on the man's own website that are not true if you believe what he said in his deposition and are not otherwise reconcilable. Either he is lying on his site or he lied under oath. There's really no way around that. So that's bad.
Bringing this around to my original point, if you're searching for the "real Shaolin" then I think you probably wasted your time. If you didn't much buy the lineage story anyway and you think the system is effective and well-designed, then I don't see how the time spent training it is wasted time. Sucks to be lied to either way but I'm just sayin'.
"I'm thinking of someone else who made it all up, too."
My goodness...you've got:
Simon Olaf(Temple Kung Fu)
Iron Kim(Oom young do)-did he admit he made his stuff up? Not sure. But any guy who is in prison for Tax evasion can't be too ethical.
Ashida Kim(not sure if he made it up..but I heard that he lives w/ his mom in a bsement somewhere :o
and now..Shaolin Do! :o:o:o
No I'm not surprised or particularly upset. I've been frequenting these forums for years and understand all the criticisms (and agree with many of them). I kept training because I thought the material was good despite its ambiguous origins. But many many student started training and kept training because of the representations and to have "from the horse's mouth" confirmation is a big deal to SD.
Hopefully there will be a domino effect as all the fraudster TMA guys are busted one by one.
I thought you would know better.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marques...ensberry_Rules
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxiana
sin the is not fraud. hes asian he is allowed to do dis
I saw a video of a shaolin do group going to china and indonesia. In china the shaolin monks did their demonstration and it was very similar to what you see as shaolin today. Very acrobatic, fast, etc. Then I saw students of the Indonesian school do their demo. Theirs seemed to be much more grounded and realistic for combat. And frankly it looked nothing like what was being shown in china. As a side note, the internal forms people in Indonesia were some of the best I've seen.
The external forms shown in Indonesia were very similar to what we're taught. Just a thought.
shaolin boxing has not changed for over 500 years.
you are kidding right? all things change none or nothing stays the same
based on boxing manuscripts, shaolin boxing, and most northern chinese martial arts have not changed visually for 500 years.
conceptually northern martial arts has not changed for over 1000 years.
have you never found away to use a tech in a way that was not shown to you? if you have then your own art has changed, with each step the world changes