no tricks or bait and switch-black and white-yes or no please...
Does HFY have a Gwai ma section in their Biu Jee form?
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no tricks or bait and switch-black and white-yes or no please...
Does HFY have a Gwai ma section in their Biu Jee form?
Hey DR.LJ,
Are you John Cresione?
Sauchi
LOL, didn't see a 'yes' or a 'know' in that reply! :D
Yes-Hi Matt how are you!!
How's things?
Hey John, good thanks!
I'm going to answer your question:
Yes, they do.
Interesting, so does TWC. Sifu Ryan Kennedy from Toronto demonstates it here:
http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/clips.asp
How's it going man?
That was a pre USA thing that was taken out and then put back in-I have seen a few variations of it-
-check you pm here bro'
First of all Capt'n I want to make it clear that there are no secrets. I don't want to get slammed here again for my joke about it . . .lol
The Gwai Mah has been a part of the form for years. When Sifu Delroi Flood from Bermuda went to Australia in the 80's he saw the Aussies doing the Gwai Mah and showed it to me. We would pratice it but never taught it. Also, I have a video from a 2006 L.A. seminar where Joe Sayah asks Sifu Cheung about the Gwai Mah section of the Biu Jee form that was taught years ago and if we could start teaching it again. Sifu said OK so it's back in the form. There are also kicks on the dummy that many people may not have seen that are taught now. There is footage of Sifu doing the dummy form with those kicks when he went to the VTTA in HK in the late 70's to show the forms. In fact there are things I hadn't seen before myself that have been taught in the last few years. But remember, they aren't secrets but just things Sifu has decided to teach now.
Phil
The Gwai Mah was part of the form when I learned it in c. 1991-2 while my academy was still part of the WWCKFA.
I've been taught the 16 kick dummy set, and another chi gerk dummy set, but AFAIK these were not on the curriculum from 1989-1996 (whne I started TWC and when my instructor left the WWCKFA). My instructor had learned them at some earlier time from GM Cheung.
John,
In response to your question, HFY does indeed have Gwai Ma.
But I don't think getting this answered is your real motive. Gwai ma is all over the place in traditional Kung Fu systems, and your question is as silly as someone asking if martial art uses arms and legs.
Given your history with Robert hopefully this isn't some cheap attempt to further propogate rumors Robert started about TWC and HFY somehow being stolen or borrowing from each other. If so next thing you know maybe you will take the stance that Choi Lee Fut came from HFY or TWC since they too use Gwai Ma.
Matt
By default John through your connection with Robert Chu any question you have for HFY is seen as insincere of questionable motive and in this particular case as a waste of time since the way this question was formed shows a lack of common knowledge on your part no understanding of Chinese and that you are willing to risk looking foolish for some reason when you could have very easily done a search of this forum on your own and formed an intelligent opinion as to the answer and then asked a more credible question.Quote:
Honest HFY Question-
no tricks or bait and switch-black and white-yes or no please...
Does HFY have a Gwai ma section in their Biu Jee form?
Even with the trivial and frivolous answer provided by Mr. Punch he comes off as slightly more credible than yourself even if he did have a 50/50 chance of guessing southern arts sometimes have things in common.
I agree with Matt on the surface your question sounds silly but my analogy would be akin to asking a southern martial artist do you use sao in your system. Gwai Ma is present in all southern martial arts in some form or another. Gwai Ma is more a term emphasizing the use of the knee but more times than not any specific use because it is a general term. Any system which emphasizes tin yaan dei as Hung Fa Yi does and being a southern martial art will utilize Gwai Ma but it will not be specific to the Bui Jee level because again it is a general term.
If Robert has any more questions tell him to ask them himself.
Real good way to win friends and influence people-so because I know Robert I'm guilty of what?
Robert is his own man-I am not his mouthpiece
How about this guys-Yip man lineage doesn't have it in the forms,Yeun Kay San does-so easy to ask a question if I don't know an answer-why "assume"?
How many bs threads and flame wars have I been involved with on this forum?
How often do I post here?
My history on this board is non confrontational !
I have been on good terms to Benny and Gee sifu for a long time.
Why create a problem that isn't here due to knee jerk reaction?
I asked a black and white question-period.
I don't think John meant anything bad and I understand how you might feel. HFY and TWC are controversial versions of WC. You should expect queries based on that fact.
People always ask why is your tan sao so high, why do you train to fight on the blindside, YM taught everyone the same, your forms look funny? I could go on. I don't react negatively though. The only way to prove the effectiveness of a fighting art is to fight. Get my point? We fight and what we use works. You're going to get questions so what people say doesn't really matter. I deal with questions from a techniacal standpoint. I don't take it personal. After all NONE of us can claim to know everything about WC history or origins.
No one who starts off with a phrase like that is ever taken seriously. It's equivalent to saying "I'm not a racist but..." John, you're on such good terms with Benny why not just ask him your questions.Quote:
Honest HFY Question-
no tricks or bait and switch-black and white-yes or no please...
Phil
It's a two way street if you don't want your question to be taken personal might I suggest that a person not take the answer personal either. Phil you of all people should understand how the insincerity of this particular question was perceived by HFY members. We have local and international students and family members who viewed the question based upon John's relationship to Robert which could never be mistaken as sincere given his history and willingness to instigate ill will and distrust. We contrast with the likes of your own family member Sifu Flood who traveled more than 2,000 miles to a HFY Seminar in Dayton to have his questions answered in person. Sifu Flood as you will remember stated he saw things on the surface that he thought were similar to his previous training only to have the details presented to him in person and find out that things can look similar but provided with the details they can actually be quite different that is the route to finding real answers.
People of questionable character or associates of those with questionable character or a known bias towards the HFY family should expect their questions to be received with some animosity or a watchful eye at the very least. There are many reasons to doubt the sincerity of John's question not the least of which is that he gives no detail for why he raised the question in his original post and later he suggest that for someone who doesn't post very often it makes sense that this inaccurate question was a good reason to post.
So on the contrary if John is trying to insight the whole of the HFY family both local and internationally by posting questions such as this he only risk further widening the distrust created by Robert Chu and angering our members to the point that they do answer him more harshly than I or Matt have already. You get what you put out Sifu Flood has won the admiration of many of our members simply because he was willing to do things in a manner which show sincerity with action over words. So at this point John appears to be more about games and more distrust than he is about positive and sincere action and interaction involved in positive learning and sharing of ideas. Other HFY members have read the post and chose not to answer him but should they meet in person they might be a little more willing to express themselves to him. That is something to take into account as well when phrasing these questions on an international web site.
John,
re-
If you look at your original question-Quote:
Why create a problem that isn't here due to knee jerk reaction?
I asked a black and white question-period.
To me that comes across like you expect a shady answer or some deception, when you ask like that expect to get a response you probably won't like.Quote:
no tricks or bait and switch-black and white-yes or no please...
Matt
If you weren't so wary of shadows that are not there you could have interpreted it as: "no tricks or bait and switch on my (John C) part".
When he is asking for a "yes or no" answer, how can you offer a shady answer? A deceptive one maybe, but that is only a 50-50 possibility.
You're usually more open than others to questions about HFYWCK.
HFYWCK against the world ... rah rah rah ...
Chee,
Some people/groups are their own worst enemy, I'm starting to think that is the case here:)
James
Actually, it came across more like he really wanted a straight answer and was at great pains to try to avoid incurring the long, rambling, paranoid, accusational rants that you and Tony "five dollar man" Jacobs responded with.Quote:
To me that comes across like you expect a shady answer or some deception, when you ask like that expect to get a response you probably won't like.
Maybe some people have a known bias towards HFY because some of you come across as paranoid lunatics with OCD, or talk smack about other lineages in a book.Quote:
People of questionable character or associates of those with questionable character or a known bias towards the HFY family should expect their questions to be received with some animosity or a watchful eye at the very least.
Duende ande JP at least come across as reasonable, the rest of you need to develop some outside interests. Try bonsai or life drawing.
Sure, and he's in constant contact with Osama Bin Laden and Pol Pot's and Mussolini's ghosts as well :rolleyes:Quote:
We have local and international students and family members who viewed the question based upon John's relationship to Robert which could never be mistaken as sincere given his history and willingness to instigate ill will and distrust.
Are you telling me these "local and international students and family members" are constantly scanning forums lookimg for anti-HFY undertones in posts so that they can expose the perpetrators at length?
Jesus, get a friggin' life. You HFY guys are weird.
CFT,Quote:
When he is asking for a "yes or no" answer, how can you offer a shady answer? A deceptive one maybe, but that is only a 50-50 possibility.
There is an inherent problem in the fact that you can't give a yes or no answer to an essay question. If John is unhappy with the answer he received to the question he put out he only need look within to understand why that is.
To be pedantic, and why not, it beats animosity ...
Matt answered that gwai ma was in HFYWCK as well as other Southern CMA. He did not confirm or deny that it was in the HFY Biu Jee form.
What a load of bull! I wouldn't touch HFY with a 10 foot pole! You guys come across like a bunch of lunatic cult members! John asked a simple and straight-forward question that was easily answered with "yes" or "no." He included a short disclaimer in the beginning in hopes of avoiding the kind of animostic response that he got. Matt & Tony....all you've managed to do on this thread is...once again....make the HFY family look bad. Good going! Regardless of whether John has some kind of history with HFY, it was a simple question that he asked. Anyone reading this thread that is new to WCK would wonder just what pile of crap John accidently stepped in here, and just what kind of loonies the HFY guys really are!
LOL....
Have you tried to read the Book "Mastering Kung Fu" perhaps he should have used the terms "battle arrays" or "Gwai ma science and developement"
If he'd read the book, he would have realised like i have, with these guys...there are no simple answers.
Just one mans opinion.
DREW
thanks-but don't waste or bother-
I posted it that way to try and have it be simple-SINCE I DON'T POST MUCH,NOT CONNECTED TO ANYONE POLITICALLY,AND HAVE A PRETTY LEVEL HEADED REPUTATION IN MOST CIRCLES-BUT,they misread it-and read into it because I have a relationship with Robert,and I would guess don't hold to the sacred creedo that HFY is a separate animal from TWC-so that makes me guilty of plots and schemes...sorry but it just means I have an opinion that I usually keep to myself-
I have relationships(patients) with Hookers,Strippers and Porn Stars too-what does that make me?(Lucky?)
I wasn't even on this regularly-if you can call it that-till about a year ago when Duende used me as a reference to try and help his case about HFY vs TWC-
I went to the first HFY seminar in Arizona years ago-why-To see for myself-and up until last year-you nor anyone else really heard a peep out of me about what I thought-
So since I have an opinion that is not shared-I am a bad guy,and obviously on some sort of enemy list it appears--and since I am a friend of Robert's -his puppet
None of their conclusions hold any water-it's ok-
Tony wanted me to write an essay about why I wanted to know-
Well I am a Wing Chun guy-a simple question,not fa kune!
I posted my reasons already in my second post-direct and to the point-
Did you hear the one about a TWC guy, a HFY guy who walked into a bar?? So the WC guy says.......geez give it a friggin rest will you...I swear you guys were banging on with the same he said she said ****e the last time I was here to try and LEARN something interesting...:confused:
CFT,Quote:
To be pedantic, and why not, it beats animosity ...
The difference between the question and the answer only appears that way the animosity is a matter of opinion.KPM,Quote:
What a load of bull! I wouldn't touch HFY with a 10 foot pole!
Anyone coming to that conclusion based upon conversations made on an internet forum is as irresponsible as they are narrow minded.
There is no need to speculate on answer to a question that is specific to a particular lineage that you can't verify the answer to without more awareness of the system itself. Since everyone here seems to have an opinion based on their own interpretation of the question and their understanding of "Gwai Ma" relative to their experience instead of dwelling on what you perceive as a negative add some positive feed back and answer what you believe "Gwai Ma" is and how it is used in the martial art you practice.
It's true, I used John as a reference on a thread TWC/HFY thread awhile back. I assumed that if he had a difference of opinion then the actual TWC trained instructor who was present at that Seminar (Sifu William Mason), that he would of said something then. As John led us to believe by his behavior that he appreciated the HFYWC system knowledge that we focused on at the Seminar.
Instead he chose to voice his difference of opinion here, years later on KFO...
Call me paranoid, or what have you... but though it's not a "bait and switch-black", it certainly smells the same to me.
Differences of opinion are always welcome in my book.
I just don't have much respect for those who make judgements and act like an expert before they put their time in and have real understanding under their belt.
But if you guys want to keep listening to the "Seminar Sifu's" go right ahead.
Liddel
if you dislike that book so much that my KF brother bought for you... show some class and pass it on to someone else.
:confused: Matt/Canglong,
Why got so sensitive or defensive on a question? Did buddhism (part of HFY philiosophy) teach you that there are always 2 ways to interpret something: constructive way and destructive way? It seemed like you always take things negatively.
Please, it was JUST a question.
If you like it, answer it, otherwise, just don't! Why spending so much energy defending your position on a questionable motive and attacking it?
Here we go again....... :eek:
The forum was quite peaceful until.........
CHS
You know... you're right, and to a large extent I regret that this thread caused so much negative energy.
Unfortunately however, there exist a few individuals who use every chance comparison of HFY and TWC to slander our system in a very bad way. This is unacceptable.
So until these certain few get a grip on there ego's.... you're going to have HFY members on the defensive and innocent people get caught in the crossfire.
I wish it wasn't this way, but it is. I look forward to the day when all this silliness comes to an end.
Hello,
One way to start down this path is to ignore the negativity and refuse to feed it. A sure way to deal with an offending person is to return kindness for goodness. Like the Bible says, this is like heaping hot coals upon his head.
Seems to me that to respond without animosity and anger or defensiveness would lend more credence to ones position. Everyone will have differences of opinion but when you permit someone else to make you respond in a certain way, don't you really give them a measure of control over you???
I fail to see why a civil response can't be:
"Thanks for asking. Yes, we have move X in form Y and we apply in manner Z. How do you guys do yours?"
But then, that may be too easy....
Hello all - Sorry to see how this thread turned out (and started).
IMO, when I first read this (regardless WHO posts it - I don't know John), if he was 100% genuine in his question, and always has been, why even post the first half "no tricks or bait and switch-black and white-yes or no please..."?
It seemed to me he was trying to clear the air up front because of past performances of doing just this (tricks/bait & swtich). If not, why not just ask the question? To me, it seems like a bit of guilty concience to me (and I read this post before anyone else replied)
Then he writes exactly how he expects to be answered "black/white - yes/no" - doesn't leave much room for discussion either does it? To me, this really doesn't sound like someone that is genuinely out to have a conversation or after anything productive. And I'm trying to ignore all the HFY vs. TWC vs. the rest of the WC World crap - I really don't have time for that.
Now, I could be wrong in my first assumption, but why not just simply ask the question, or maybe even give a reason why up front? I can see where this might put someone on guard in posting on the thread.
Funny, before a HFY person even gave an answer (someone else did), this was posted:
No offence inteded to the poster, but before someone from HFY even gave an answer, a comparison between HFY & TWC is already being made. Now, I realize that it wasn't John that posted this, but how does this look?Quote:
Interesting, so does TWC. Sifu Ryan Kennedy from Toronto demonstates it here: http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/clips.asp
Regards,
Jonathan
Yes-you are paranoid---that's the price of being in a secret society,triad,tong,cell group,gang,mafia whatever
Ego-were was the ego in a question?
I wrote it like that to avoid all this bs-you you guys didn't take it like that-sorry an too bad-really
My respect for HFY has nothing to do with my opinion of what it is or where it comes from-that's called maturity
My respect for it and Gee sifu kept me quiet and away from this nonsense for years-that's called being a stand up guy and a gentleman-
As for Bill Mason-so you are saying that I don't know enough about TWC,THAT I AM NOT A FULLY TRAINED SIFU IN IT?
You use the seminar sifu experience to discredit my opinion,when you use Delroi and Mason's-from seminars!
And what qualifications Bill Mason have-he got his "TWC" from Phil Holder-mine came direct from Cheung sifu
Bill Mason said it was A DIFFERENT VERSION-so he is sited as an expert-?!?
Guys in YOUR OWN CAMP-whom out of RESPECT shall be nameless feel one got it from the other-MAKING IT THE SAME SYSTEM
Drew-I didn't read the book-but I did look at the pictures_LOL!
Canglong-you would foster more positive understanding by using terminology that people understand,and not heaven,man and earth flowers-you guys aren't he only game in town for understanding chinese,or using it to separate yourselves from the rest,or try to give yourself a superior sense of knowledge,pedigree or standing
AS AN ASIDE,FROM A BUSINESS PERSPECTIVE-I really don't think this marketing strategy is working too well for you--
let's move on---
exactly-all I wanted was a yes or no answer-no discussion means no bs-
MY ATTEMPT AT TRYING TO KEEP IT SIMPLE WITH THE PREFACE OBVIOUSLY FAILED AND WAS READ INTO
Again-it's a shame
John, then why state that you (john) aren't igoing to attempt any tricks or bait/switch? What brought this on, is this something you've done in the past? If not, then why not just state the balck/white yes/no?
Either way, IMO, the demand for a yes/no answer is a bit presumtious don't you think? Were you even interested in conversation?
Ok, now things become a bit more clear to me.
So, this is what you REALLY think of HFY and its members? I am beginning to understand the inital apprehention of Matt and Tony... Gang? Mafia? Triad?
John, now that you are not quiet, what is your opinion? I ask because the impression you are giving makes me think the initial quesiton was a bit loaded now...
So, that is your opinion, that we use some of the traditional chinese terms so we can give ourselves a "superior sense of knowledge,pedigree or standing"? Hmmm, you don't even know me, but now you assume that since I also am from HFY and also use these terms that this is the reason?!?!? I think you are assuming much too much here.
The picture is getting clearer indeed....
Without knowing anything about you from the start, I am thinking my initial assumption regarding you 'intentions' on the first post was right. You aren't interested in anything more than to start crap. And to think I was giving you the benifit of the doubt....
You obviously have a low opinion for the HFY lineage, as well as its members, so why do you even care what they have in thier system?
Jonathan