Bare-Knuckle Boxing = Western Wing Chun ??
If you study old boxing pictures from periods prior to the use of boxing gloves, a wing chun man cannot help but notice how the bare knuckle boxers have their elbows tucked in front of their nipples - and have one fist out a little further than the back fist. It looks very much like a wing chun structure.
http://cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/go...old-george.htm
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...%3D2%26hl%3Den
If you study the pictures of boxers over time, you will notice that as boxing gloves get introduced and get bigger - the elbows of the boxers move away from the cennter and towards the shoulder line - and eventually past the shoulder line.
Obviously placement of elbows in front of the chest versus outside of the chest changes the physics of the punching and footwork strategies (compare the wing chun punch to a boxer's punch; and compare their footwork). (e.g., western boxers wearing gloves throw punches from their hips and shoulders, and they use footwork as a defensive measure. wing chun boxers throw punches from their hips up through their elbows and center and use elbow's as a platform to redirect attacks - rather than use footwork to avoid attacks. wing chun fighters use their footwork to manage range to optimize their elbow structures)
So who cares?
Could western bare knuckle boxers have independently developed the structures and footwork presently attributed to Chinese wing chun?
[If anyone is aware of any research on this issue, please send me a private message. thanks] For example: http://redrebelmartialarts.blogspot....with-adam.html
From the 3rd link given in post#1 on this thread...
"These Europeans (bare-knucked boxers) kept their heads back, with their weight on the rear leg. They punched straight and took small, shuffling steps, with a few low kicks or none at all...What I submit to you is that Wing Chun would be greatly improved by incorporating certain key principles of Bare-Knuckle Boxing...
Bare-Knuckle Boxing came to our line through my Si-Gung, Karl Godwin who with his own teacher went in-depth into the study of the roots of the world’s martial arts. In particular those of Western fighting arts, their development and finally, their compatibility with Wing Chun. As a result, my teacher, Bill Graves...spent much time developing and refining his Western influenced Wing Chun...
The compatibility of Wing Chun and Western boxing is nothing new however. It has been recognized before. Bruce Lee, an early Wing Chun practitioner, found that boxing could fit the principles of Wing Chun better than any of the Asian arts....
So my early training in Wing Chun was a combination of undiluted Leung Sheung...Wing Chun as a skeleton with the Western boxing expression. I learned the sets without alteration but when it came to sparring and ultimately fighting it was certainly pre-sport Western boxing. The posture was tilted back with the arms extended upon interception keeping the head away from the opponent’s fists. All of Wing Chun’s concepts were in place but the emphasis was certainly a polished Long-Bridge Boxing articulation...the way I train now is much different.
It’s all advanced, short range centerline control. It is the opposite spectrum of my early training and is considered advanced Wing Chun...
But as a teacher I have come to understand the importance of retaining that early longer range Western Long-Bridge Boxing. My experience has been that without its influence, a three to eight year practitioner of Wing Chun is predominantly a mid to short range fighter who finds kickers and anyone who fights at, or just outside of, boxing range to be problematic. I say this with all due respect not wanting to ruffle feathers, but I’ve touched hands with many of the major lines’ practitioners only to find them wanting. They could not deal with someone who kept them out of their comfort zone. In other words, I found that their interpretation of Wing Chun was somehow limited by tradition. It lacked presence and innovation."
***AS I'VE SAID NUMEROUS TIMES, wing chun is short range fighting and can indeed be married to certain aspects of western boxing (and kickboxing) to take up the slack. The exact approach to this marriage might vary from person-to-person, ie.- I use a different longer range approach to my elbow placement and I do use horizontal boxing punches from longer ranges...but the whole concept of making up the distance with different structures and delivery is the key here...
so I welcome this quote from post#1.