Thought ill just throw this in the mix enjoy :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7j5bSRb-3TQ
Thought ill just throw this in the mix enjoy :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7j5bSRb-3TQ
Thanks for sharing!
[QUOTE=Jansingsang;1240877]Thought ill just throw this in the mix enjoy :)
He is a good guy.But blindfold chi sau is sort of passe(sp?)
I personally cannot see any point in this type of training. :confused:
What is it trying to prove/develop?
For me its not good Ving Tsun.
Fair enough you know what pushes your buttons in VT All a matter of preference too each individual I thought ill throw it in as it can be a topic of discussion
Too be fair Sigung Wsl did do this drill what we must ask our self is whats the real significance of its use ? Is it about Sensitivity of the arms to redirect the force of energy? Or If you get poked in the eyes you can still F@#k them up just like in Warriors two :D Or is it just a Show off Drill :(
Yes Sigung did do this drill. There could have been many reasons why. It may all be smoke and mirrors. That's normal in Wing Chun.
Fundamentally you have to ask what it will develop. For people that think that Ving Tsun is about gluing themselves on each others arms this drill will have its place. In real fighting there is no prolonged contact. There is no time to chase the the arms like is taught in most schools. IMO this is another drill that only works between two cooperating training partners and does little to increase ones prowess in a real fight. We were given eyes for a reason and they are the most important thing you will need when somebody is trying to bash your head in. Why waste time with blind folds.
One could argue that maybe it was used to tease the CLF guys. Who know's?
Blindfolded chi sau training is nonsense IMO and only adds to the arrogance that Wing Chun guys think they can fight that way and/or it develops any real skill.
I was taught in the past that if you could develop the ability to "bridge" get control of the arms and use the opponents force against them with your sight restricted that it should make it easier when sight is restored. I have since recognized the error in that way of thinking and firmly believe that that whole idea is absolute BS!
Blindfold or not.... There were many bad habits present in his footwork that would get him into trouble against a competent fighter.
Cliff is good but I think this is just silly martial arts stuff, PR. Hard to see the benefit. I'm sure he would say that himself if you asked.
PR stuff would be my guess but then why sell an idea that doesn't make much sense or has any benefit in developing Kung fu skills? Any logical thinking person would think it's absurd.
Ving Tsun evolves. Maybe this is one of those things that should remain in the past. ;)
Its a useful tool, nothing more. Don't take it as a way of fighting but a simple drill to lep you.
Paul
www.moifa.co.uk
So here is the reason....
The blindfold is given to students that have problems "chasing the arms" visually and with their own arms. The thinking is that if the students vision is taken away that they will not be effected by obstacles and therefore will develop the correct idea of LSJC using the whole body. Some students that have more courage and are less prone to being scared of incoming limbs may not require it. If the student needs the blindfold he should keep wearing it until the problem is trained away.
Unfortunately people have interpreted blindfold training into trying become sensitive to each others movements through prolonged contact with the arms. The correct idea is not to stick to the arms but attack the center without cowering away from attacks.
.........................and also for PR :D
Without asking him I don't know and I would be embarrassed to ask but there is a lot of arm chasing in that clip.
In the WSL clips he just drills forward which makes more sense if any development is to come from it IMO.
I have never needed the blindfold which is why I wasn't really sure about it. I'm glad I asked. Everyday is a school day :)
I'm sure he doesn't think he needs it, lol.
I just can't imagine well known sifu x putting out a clip of themselves going back to basics and trying to fix their own arm chasing problem. Wouldn't happen, must be PR purposes (although the explanation you provided does make some kind of sense)!
You just need to expand your thinking a little.
For instance, what if I was caught on an elevator, completely packed full, and it got stuck between floors and all the lights went out and one guy went postal starting to attack everyone?
Or what if I p1ssed off a mob boss and me and 4 other guys were blindfolded, trussed and tossed in the trunk of a car. Then, whoever fought their way out first got to live.
It could be relevant. ;)
Ah ha Theres always a reason to a drill within Wsl lineage Sigung wouldn't have taken part in something which had no developmental gain imo He was always cracking jokes about pulor trick individuals per se . So now were all a lot cleaer of the overall meaning Which being LSJC development tool
As the old saying goes If you dont ask quetions you'll never know:)
When develop Tinjing with blindford?
Information going through your
- eyes will be processed by your brain.
- skin will be processed by your spine.
Since it's faster to respond from your spine than from your brain, the Tinjin can give you faster reaction. When you open your eyes and your arm touches your opponent's arms, you may cheat yourself by using your vision and not 100% use your skin sensativity. When you are in blindford, you have no choice but to "only" depend on your sesitivity.
If you do want to develop your sensativity, blindford is the way to go.
Why whenever anyone mentions sensitivity do some people assume this equates to arm chasing. All high level fighters in all systems develop tactile responses its just that many systems rely on experience to teach it rather than having specific drills. Using the tactile responses is far faster than having rely on visual processing. When you are doing your lap sao drills do you rely on your eyes to tell you that the partner has made contact with your arm? or can you tell without looking when they over commit and cross the centre line or alternatively come up short? This is sensitivity, using the information that your arms receive upon contact to find angles and gaps, nothing to do with sticking or chasing arms, and what Ip Man was referring to when he said " the opponent will show you how to hit them"
I'm not prepared to critique the chi-sau in this clip as it is quite different to what our group practices. I do however feel that blindfolded chi sau (or simply shutting your eyes for a bit) can train useful attributes ...if not overdone.
As others noted this practice may help with "lat sau jik chung", but sometimes students will just try to defend themselves by reverting to chasing hands. I think a better use of shutting your eyes when training is to work on maintaining forward pressure from your stance through your fingers, because the one thing you can't do with your eyes shut is to let a gap develop between yourself and your opponent.
As far as applications go, I think realizing that you are not totally dependent upon visual cues (as is a long range fighter) helps build confidence. Also, over the years, I have run into a couple of visually impaired WC students. Once they made contact, their disadvantage was greatly reduced. Not reduced enough to fight a wary and evasive long-range fighter in a sparring session, but perhaps enough to defend themselves against some foolish punk who tries to take advantage of their "disability" and grab them.
I think developing Lsjc in chi sau is, as wingchunIan notes, to use "[...] the information that your arms receive upon contact to find angles and gaps".
However, I feel the idea of Lsjc and the rattan cane are perhaps more relevant to developing fighting skills through chi sau.
Yes, you can feel for a gap but you don't process that information through your mind; that forward intent is already there so that when the linchpin is removed, your strike is already on its way.
I must add that lsjc, for me at least, has been hard to develop; particularly the subtleties and balance so that your opponent cannot use that intent against you. I will also add that, at least through the Ip Chun lineage I initially trained through, lsjc is not something trained very often nor is it, much to my frustration, a concept made explicit to students.
Eh? So you are saying that LSJC is about receiving information are you? :eek:Quote:
I think developing Lsjc in chi sau is, as wingchunIan notes, to use "[...] the information that your arms receive upon contact to find angles and gaps".
Jesus! LSJC has nothing to do with rattan circles!Quote:
However, I feel the idea of Lsjc and the rattan cane are perhaps more relevant to developing fighting skills through chi sau.
Poppy****!Quote:
Yes, you can feel for a gap but you don't process that information through your mind; that forward intent is already there so that when the linchpin is removed, your strike is already on its way.
LSJC is an important part of Ving Tsun. It's not hard to develop if the training methods are correct unless the student is a bit useless. maintaining it in sparring is another story. I never even heard of LSJC in the Ip Chun lineage.Quote:
I must add that lsjc, for me at least, has been hard to develop; particularly the subtleties and balance so that your opponent cannot use that intent against you. I will also add that, at least through the Ip Chun lineage I initially trained through, lsjc is not something trained very often nor is it, much to my frustration, a concept made explicit to students.
LSJC has been roughly translated to "loss of contact, thrust forward without hesitation". People wrongly assume that the "loss of contact" bit means that we already have arm contact and when it is released we should thrust forward using some kind of springy energy. That is a common misconception in Wing Chun.
unfortunately I've had plenty of them. It's you that is in denial over something that is so real and present in every single fighting system ever practiced. You are almost certainly employing it in your own training / fighting even if you don't realise it or wish to acknowledge it.
So you are saying that when I spar in Ving Tsun and/or when I have been in a street ruck that I am sensing energy in my opponents arms and using this to find gaps and lines of attack??? You are actually telling me that I am and that I don't realize it and that I am in denial??? Really??
Typical Ip Chun Benny Hill you are mate. Put me back on your ignore list FFS! :mad:
My own lineage is Ip Chun and we teach LSJC as part of SNT and it is a source of emphasis as soon as a student starts poon sao or any other interactive training. It is one of the core concepts we teach and it receives a great deal of emphasis.
Our definition of LSJC is applies any time that there is nothing between the the striking limb and the target whether there was contact in the first place or not, but it is interesting to note that the concept you describe is part of the majority of wing chun teachings including most of Ip Man's direct students. Also interesting how often the first two thirds of the maxim get omittedQuote:
LSJC has been roughly translated to "loss of contact, thrust forward without hesitation". People wrongly assume that the "loss of contact" bit means that we already have arm contact and when it is released we should thrust forward using some kind of springy energy. That is a common misconception in Wing Chun.
Graham, you have misunderstood some of what I have said.
I do say in my post that by information I am being very broad and I am quick to move away from Ian's position; I even say I am not referring to using the mind to think. If I feel pressure or an absence of pressure, that is still information for my body. To my mind lsjc is still conditioning a response to stimuli or information so I see that as bound up with it.
Further I am talking about a rattan cane not a circle; it is flexible like bamboo and springy. Yes, that is to think of lsjc in that way; it is very subtle though and more a trigger for movement for the strike once the gap is there; that forward light springy intent as a c o c k e d hammer of a gun that can trigger a more explosive and powerful burst, here the movements for a strike with hips and elbows connected.
Incidentally, a lot of what I outline above is just my thoughts and most of those thoughts have come from others not associated with or training through an Ip Chun lineage.
Please feel free to post up your further analogies to help me better understand this concept.
p.s.
A bit ad hominem, no?