what if someone did this to you.....what would u do????

i was practicing with my friend one day and he did this move on me. I was taking a quick breather...and
The first scenario. My back was turned and he came from behind slipped his hand around my neck and his the inside of his elbow..ie the joint came to rest at my throat.
He tightened his arm and then slipped his free arm and cupped it around the back of my head, thereby bracing it...so i couldnt headbutt him.
What would u do to quickly and effectively stun him and/or also removing yourself from the grip.

The second scenario: again my back turned. He slipped his hands around the middle of my torso in tight vise grip. What would u do here?
I came up with my own improvisations, but Im wondering what you guys think. Thanks

stp ;)

1. I'd take a side step torwards the arm that's around my neck and at the same time hit him with my elbow to his ribs. then I'd move behind him, drop down to a firm horse stance and push him over my leg with a horizontal blow to his stomach.

2. I assume you have your hands caught too and he's not lifting you in the air. this usually ends up in the ground. you can grab his leg between your legs and try to push him over that way or do the same as in the first scenario slightly modified. this is tricky situation if the guy holding you is strong.

these are propably not the best techniques and 95% of you will say it won't work in the streets, but guess what. I don't care =)

Poke him in the eyes, if he covers his eyes, grab/hit his groin, if he coveres his groin with his leg stop his foot/kick his shin/stomp his knee. If he lifts you, point your toes up and swing down into whatever ends up there (shin to groin). If he brings his legs away from you, you are back into position for his eyes.

Of course since this is your "friend" use your own judgement.

Stp:

These are standard grappling techniques with standard counters. I am going to assume you are standing in both of these situations. The first is a rear naked, or sleeper, choke without the hooks (meaning he doesn’t have his feet wrapped around the front of your thighs). The first thing you need to do is protect your throat. As soon as you feel his first arm wrapping around your neck, drop your jaw and bring both of your hands on his arm, one on the biceps/triceps above the elbow, and the other on his forearm. Pull down with your arms to keep the pressure off your neck. Before he can put his hand in the crook of his other elbow rotate your body so that you begin to face him. You will now be in a head lock instead of a choke. Finish the escape with any of the standard head lock escapes.

The second technique is a rear waist hold, which is not dangerous in itself, but is a prelude to a number of takedowns, the nastiest being a rear suplex where he lifts you up and throws you over his arched back with both yours and his body weights landing on your head. To prevent this from happening, relax your body and drop your base as low as you can while placing your hands on the ground in front of you to keep him from lifting you. If he does start to lift you, wrap your foot around behind his knee to prevent the throw. He can hold you in the air, but cannot suplex you and eventually will have to set you down. Once he sets you down, or if he did not lift you in the first place, position both your legs so that one of his is between the two of yours. Bend over, look through you legs and grab his ankle. Roll over your outside shoulder and he will follow. You will end up on the ground with him in a knee bar.

One problem I have with the bite, eye gouge, kick his groin in these situations is that he has you in positions of superior control. If you do any of these things to him and he retains the control position, he will probably end up just being more pi$ off. I have been bitten, eye gouged, and hit in the nuts (I spent three days in the hospital after that one), and none of these things stopped me during a fight. Most people who are proficient with the rear naked choke can hold the choke for the 4 to 6 seconds it takes you to lose consciousness, no matter what punishment you dish out to them. Can you imagine being unconscious after gouging a guy’s eyes out and he gets to do whatever he wants to you while you are totally helpless. I can think of any number of things I would do to him, even if I couldn’t see, just one of which would be to take his eyes also. I believe your first priority should be to escape your inferior position before you do things that have the potential to really make him go berserk from a superior position.

A good counter should leave YOU in a position of superior control.

[This message was edited by Knifefighter on 01-06-01 at 07:56 PM.]

Isn't the person who retains the hold throughout these also likely to retain the hold (or improve the hold) throughout the escape?

I'm not sure to what extent in an actual fight I am going to think "I better not do X, that would **** my opponent off". But your point is well taken.

"Isn't the person who retains the hold throughout these also likely to retain the hold (or improve the hold) throughout the escape?"

No, the escape process should, in itself, weaken the hold as it progresses. For example, when I drop my chin and hold my opponent’s arms, I have weakened his hold on my neck (sometimes, just by doing this you negate his hold altogether). When I rotate and turn into him, I cause him to start to lose his hold and move into a much less lethal one (the headlock) that is relatively easy to get out of and into a control position. In the second example, when I base out low and bring my hands down to the ground, his hold becomes much less secure. Once I roll and get the knee bar, I have the control, as well as the finishing, position.
â‰*

From the grapplers I had discussed the rear-naked choke with, I thought the hold had to be undone in revers of the order it was put on. First dislodge the supporting hand then deal with the bicep and forearm actually choaking.

And yes, headlocks are easy to get out of.

In defense of my original statement, do you know of any grapplers that had their eye removed and did not loosen their choke enough to escape? I find most people react to such distractions.

Jerry:
Once the full choke is applied all the way, it is very hard to get off if you have not done the pre-emptive measures that I have described. Remember, once the choke is fully applied, you’ve only got 4 to 6 seconds before you pass out. There are some counters once it is on but even these are pretty low percentage if it is sunk in tight. I have never seen anyone be able to take it off in reverse order that it was applied and would be pretty amazed if someone was actually able to pull a counter that way. I’m not sure if the grapplers you are talking to have a lot of experience with this choke, but I have spent many full training sessions on nothing but applying and countering the rear naked.

In terms of the eye gouges, I have seen two fights where the guy being choked from behind tried to go for the eyes and he couldn’t. In one, the person applying the choke just buried his face down until the other one passed out. In the other one, the guy on the back bit his fingers. We have done this very drill in training by applying the rear naked and having the person being choked try to gouge the eyes. It’s incredibly hard to do and it turns out that its a lot easier for the person in the back to gouge the other person’s eyes- that second hand that usually comes behind the head to finish the choke actually can moves very easily to the front of the face to rake into the eyes. You can finish the choke and take out the eyes at the same time.

By the way it is my belief that eye gouges are somewhat overrated in the first place. My first art was JKD which really promotes fighting with eye gouges and does a lot of training in this area. Back in the old days, I used to hang out with some hard-core, rabble-rousing JKD guys so I have seen many fights with eye gouges being used. My conclusion is that they are not as devastating as most people believe, although they do have their place.

p

[This message was edited by Knifefighter on 01-07-01 at 12:48 AM.]

As I mentioned in my original pots, the eyes can be defended, that forces other targets available (we've played with this too, but hav obviously not pushed it as far as to gouge someone's eye to see if they could keep the choke)

I did not mean to imply that an eye attack is the end-all be-all move. I fully expect some people to keep fighting. Usually the eye attacks come around because we are attaing the region anyway and might as well go for something vunerable. Nothing alone is a "fight ender" but damage to the eye is usually more useful than damage to the nose.

I would think if the other hand of the person using the rear-naked choke went for the eyes, it would stop him from using the hand to finish the sink on the choke. Making turning out of the choke much easier.

if someone has just put you in a sleeper, I don't see how you could possibly gouge their eyes anyway. It'd be kind if difficult, wouldn't it?

I think Knifefighter's suggestions are the best so far. I have also found that spearing my fingers into the tips of someones floating ribs real hard makes them loosen the grip. It's not an escape, but it can open the door for one. Pulling his arms down until it's a simple head lock is a good defense here, and you can pull out of that, and get a figure 4 on and a knee to the chest or something like that.

If someone grabs you around the waist, there is a very simple hold break from Bagua. Just put your fingernails under the quick of their fingernails (at the top end of the nail, where it grows from) and scrape the skin back. This one works very well, unless your attacker is on drugs or something and cannot feel any pain. As an alternative to this, you could start with an elbow to the head, and then pry his fingernails or even just his hands apart. If your arms are pinned to your sides, then you bend over forcefully, slamming your back into his abdomen, and at the same time open your arms up and outwards. You can then turn and strike as you turn in retaliation.

A big point to sucess with any hold break is to do it before the hold is fully on. If you let someone clamp their arm around your neck, you have to be very strong and very quick to get out of it. If your opponent gets the hold around your waist on tight, you'll have a Hell of a time getting him off of you. You have to react before the pressure is really on. Just like when you defend against a strike: you don't wait until the attack has achieved full force or until you actually get hit. You have to do something before it's to late.

*********
"To enter is to be born, to retreat is to die."
-An Old Taijiquan Saying

"if someone has just put you in a sleeper, I don't see how you could possibly gouge their eyes anyway. It'd be kind if difficult, wouldn't it?"

No, getting to one of the three targest I suggest in my original post is not difficult. Which one is available is up to the attacker.

"I think Knifefighter's suggestions are the best so far. I have also found that spearing my fingers into the tips of someones floating ribs real hard makes them loosen the grip. It's not an escape, but it can open the door for one."

Which is what I said the eye and groin hits did. No saying the guy will fight through that without loosening his grip and then saying poking the ribs will work. They all rely on a pain response. If anything, there are more instincts to protect the eyes than the ribs.

Either this type of attack will loosten the grip or it won't.

"Pulling his arms down until it's a simple head lock is a good defense here, and you can pull out of that, and get a figure 4 on and a knee to the chest or something like that."

It's never that simple. A good rear-naked, once sunk in, doesn't simply pull off.

"If someone grabs you around the waist, there is a very simple hold break from Bagua. Just put your fingernails under the quick of their fingernails (at the top end of the nail, where it grows from) and scrape the skin back. This one works very well, unless your attacker is on drugs or something and cannot feel any pain."

Again, a pain compliance technique. See above.

"As an alternative to this, you could start with an elbow to the head, and then pry his fingernails or even just his hands apart. If your arms are pinned to your sides, then you bend over forcefully, slamming your back into his abdomen, and at the same time open your arms up and outwards. You can then turn and strike as you turn in retaliation."

His shoulders are at your waist but your back is at his belly? The grab around the waist is often the beginning of a sacrifice throw (right word?) where he flipps backward so you both land on your (not his) head. You've got 1/2sec.

"A big point to sucess with any hold break is to do it before the hold is fully on. If you let someone clamp their arm around your neck, you have to be very strong and very quick to get out of it."

Somewhere between 4 and 15 sec depending on who you believe. Unless you have something that can stall unconsiousness (which I think can be done)

"If your opponent gets the hold around your waist on tight, you'll have a Hell of a time getting him off of you. You have to react before the pressure is really on."

If all he is doing is holding, he can have my waist, I will be pummeling him.

People, locks and holds are easy to escape from, as long as you don't let the person applying them put full pressure on!

Jerry,
If I read the original post correctly, the sleeper is not a simple hold. One arm is around your throat with the hand braced in the other elbow, which itself sits on top of your shoulder with its hand on the crown of your head. Not only is that hand there to stop you from head butting him (which doesn't usually work anyway), it is there in case he wants to take you to the ground. All he has to do is drop down, and not only does he get a better lock, but you will pass out quicker. If he plummets to the ground, then your neck will break. If he so desires after taking you down, he can wrap his legs in a scissor lock around your waist. Now not only does he control your throat, he controls your diaphragm. You have no angle from which to reattack, and you have no power in your attacks, either. If he wants, he can kill you. Period.

In that case, if his plan is to take you to the ground and subdue you, then stomping his foot or knee will only make your situation that much worse, because he will want to sit down. His feet and knees have nothing to do with the strength behind the hold, so he doesn't have to let go if he doesn't want to. In fact, when training in this sort of stuff, people stomping my foot or knee makes me put the lock on tighter and lower my weight.

All he has to do is bury his face in your back and you can't get to his eyes, which would not work anyway, even if you could get to them, which you can't.

Striking or grabbing the groin is a good opener to get him to lessen the pressure, but does not always work. It works against me, but not against several people I know. So it may or may not work. Better to go with something you know will work, such as an elbow strike to or spear fingers to the ribs, which will definitely get his attention. If he has been holding you in this lock for a few seconds, then chances are he means to choke you standing, in which case, you have time to try one or two things. But best to use something that will get you out of that situation right away.

The elbow strike to the head is assuming that his head is at waist level. However, it will work just as well if his head is higher up, since it is going crossways and not straight down. In the second example, the alternative where you arms are pinned to your sides: the only way he can do this is to pin them above the elbows. Any lower down on the forearms, and he has a nothing hold, simply a hug around your waist. You can "strike" his abdomen with your tailbone easily from there. By the way, Wild Goose Leaves the Flock from Baguazhang works well for that one as well.

I can do these methods in a second or so. In fact, the quicker I do them, the more violent they become. If you can't you need to work harder.

I always estimate the time it would take to put me unconcious at below 5 seconds. The reason is that you must react quickly, before the hold is on fully. Training to react with something that will at least lessen the pressure and distract him in that time limit will enable you to react effectively in a real fight.


"If all he is doing is holding, he can have my waist, I will be pummelling him."

Well said, Jerry. :)

*********
"To enter is to be born, to retreat is to die."
-An Old Taijiquan Saying

In my experience with these positions, strikes and pain infliction haven’t worked very well. One problem with striking is that it is hard to generate much power or be very accurate when your opponent is behind you. The other is it lessens your ability to maintain your balance and allows him to get you to the ground where he has a better position and/or leverage to finish you off.

Are you guys sure you are training these positions hard against someone who knows how to do them and is trying to finish? I just haven’t seen this approach be very effective against experienced grapplers.

Jerry:
The only way you can "stall" unconsciousness is with techniques like the ones I described above such as dropping your chin or pulling the choking arm down to relieve the pressure. In my BJJ academy, we get a ton of students and instructors from other systems who come to learn BJJ. Many have said they could prevent or extend the time for a loss of consciousness by relaxation techniques and other methods like this. Not one has been able to do it, but a lot of them have passed out quickly trying to do so. A blood choke such as the sleeper, stops the blood flow to the brain and there is no way you can relax or will your way to keep the blood flowing once it's transportation system has been blocked off.

Kinda like pilots under high Gs?