Wing Chun Lineage with Bagua Footwork?

I've heard from a number of people about a lineage of Wing Chun that uses Baguazhang footwork.

I was wondering if anyone with experience in both could offer some comparisons.

Danke.

Calling Sam.......Sam are you out there?
Any other Henry Leung Buddah hand Wing Chun practitioners out there to answer this post?

Hi Braden, Fut Sao Gu Yee Chuan Wing Chun Kuen does have a footworks & handset form (Siu Batt Qua). It teaches evasive, stealth, circular, angular movements which includes kicking, sweeping, palm and finger strikes. It is uniquely Buddha Palm but other Wing Chun lineages have made claims to a similar footworks. These footworks are included in all the forms, woodenman, and weapons. www.buddhapalm.com

Actually, I've found the Chum Kiu form to be a pretty complete textbook of foot movement.

The same goes for the footwork in the Bagua Single and Double Palm Changes.

[This message has been edited by HuangKaiVun (edited 06-28-2000).]

Hello,

Actually when one considers the footwork of Wing Chun you can find a nice variety. The problem is that most people do not stick to the art long enough to be exposed to the more advanced footwork. For example, when one looks at the footwork of the pole and knives one will find some very fluid and applicable movements. More so with the knives as the pole is influenced from outside of the Wing Chun proper and the knives are a direct extension of the hands.

As to the question about the Wing Chun with Bagua footwork I think if you think about it carefully you will find many examples within traditional Wing Chun as well as Fut Sau. Many people make the mistake of assuming Bagua only contains circular footwork because that is what it is most famous for. But, there is a great deal of linear footwork within the art of Bagua. It is this linear footwork which Wing Chun, and other arts can relate to. For example in Sifu Parks system, from reading I have done, there are found the following stepping patterns; The Jump Step, The Full Step, The 45' Turn Step and the 90' Turn Step. Each of these steps, along with the Y Stepping Pattern Taught by Park can be foudn in Wing Chun. The Jump Step is simply the forward step where you extend the forward leg and use adduction of the knees to bring the rear leg forward an equal distance. The feet are at a 45' angle and wieght, depending on system/lineage, will vary from 0/100 to 30/70 and there in between. The Full Step is a step forward wherein the rear leg becomes the forward leg. The 45' Step is a side step forward at an angle to the opponent while the 90' step is the 45' with the addition of turning into the opponenet and driving into him in a more direct manner. The Y Stepping Pattern is similiar to the Trianagle Stepping pattern of Wing Chun.

Now, I would love to hear more about how others of the Fut Sau lineage perfrom their stepping patterns which makes them different than other systems of Wing Chun. Rather than simply saying "In Fut Sau we have this and that" lets talk about some specifics. Please. I for one owuld love to learn more about the system and what sets it apart from other versions of Wing Chun. Sam???????

Peace,

Dave

BTW, I agree that if one truly comprehends the Chum Kui one will find a rich reportoire of footwrok. It is said that Yip Man claimed if any of his students that learned the hand techniques of the first form and the stepping of the second and lost a fight he would jump from the roof of his school. I think that Wing Chun contains all that one needs but that many do not teach it. Either from lack of knowledge or some other ulterior motive.

Say, doesn't SAU mean "hand"? Don't the characters mean "hand" and "hand" only? Wouldn't "palm" be jeung or jung? Where are the non Chinese Chinese language experts when you need them? And all this happening on American soil, virtually right under our noses? Horse Hockey!(I always thought it was "puckey")...And of course they wouldn't call it Baguazhang, shoot, that spelling and all than Pinyin XX(XX=BS) is...you know, COMMUNIST!
... [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]
lots o' hypocracy floatin' around folks.

Aren't alot thrusting step styles that are known for tight, clever footwork based on variations of the toe-in/toe-out step? I mean bagua walks the circle w/ the palm changes and stuff, but the toe-in to a female step, toe-out to a twisting step, step through to a 7* step, pull up and scoot the rear leg into a cat, then a 7* and toe in to do it again on the other side..is called the 7* steps.
I 've seen some Bak Mei forms that even did t-in/t-out, spinning in a 360. I think Wing Chun does this already. Why do styles need to have intercourse with other systems to make little fatherless babies?

Hey, am I wrong? Doesn't the character for SAU literally mean "hand", not "palm"??
?????????????????????????????????????????

[This message has been edited by MoQ (edited 07-03-2000).]

I really don't know enough about bagua to post intelligently...but why let that stop me?

Actually, though, I do notice at least a superficial resemblence between a lot of the footwork shown in Park Nom Bok's first book and the footwork we practice at our gulao/pien san wing chun school. I'd have to have more than pictures to work from to say for sure, but at first glance, it does look awfully similar.

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Peace.
Reverend Tim

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MoQ:
Say, doesn't SAU mean "hand"? Don't the characters mean "hand" and "hand" only? Wouldn't "palm" be jeung or jung?
And of course they wouldn't call it Baguazhang, shoot, that spelling and all than Pinyin XX(XX=BS) is...you know, COMMUNIST!
... [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img][/quote]

Hey Mo (I always get the urge to say nyuk nyuk nyuk right about now). Sau/Shou means hand, not palm. Palm is Jeung/Zhang. And frankly, I won't touch that Wade-Giles stuff. Gimme pinyin any day.


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grrrrrrrrrr. grrrrrrrr..
arrrrgggggggggghhhhhhh... grrrrrrrr <PLOP>
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[This message has been edited by Constipated Wombat (edited 07-03-2000).]

Well wouldn't wing chun's basic training stance be the same stance as baguas "dragon tucks it tail" posture? So taking that into consideration, the practitioner is already in kou bu (triangle stance). Bai bu can easily be used to shift the stance over to the opposite side (ala single palm change). Isn't that sequence used in Chum Kiu? Stepping out to a 45 degree and then stepping in with the same foot and blocking with a bong sao? I think the sequence is repeated three times...?

I personally think that wing chun with bagua footwork is definitely not a far fetched idea. Sounds quite plausible to me.

Peace [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

Fut Sao is Buddha Hand the Buddha Palm usage is to differenciate Cama Sifu's organization from others. The Siu Baat Gwa of Fut Sao was not taken from Ba Kwa but is unique to our style. It uses circular, linear, unilateral, crossover, and monkey footworks. The idea is to attain a non visual position in order to freely counter strike. There are circular hands which are rarely seen in Wing Chun when combined with the footworks have incredible Ging and palming/pointing effectiveness. This does not contradict our linear laws since the circular hands are applicable to the footworks of Siu Baat Gwa.

[This message has been edited by Sam (edited 07-04-2000).]

Hello All,

Sam, I appreciate your response but would still like more detail as to what is different within the system you study. From what I have seen your system has more forms and some may even have a more itnernal aspect. Still, there are plenty of circular techniques to be found in Yip Man Wing Chun, and from what I have been told, as well as other branches as well. I know that there are differences between Fut Sau and other branches I just would like to know some of the more apparent differences. For example, there is internal training found within other versions and some rather interesting footwork patterns, some circular in nature. You can get a glimpse of some of these by taking a look at Randy Williams books. I know Henry Leung is reputed to have brought Fut Sau to the US and I do wish to meet Sifu Cama and attend a class, though Sifu Barbalace is closer in Manhattan. I know there is a difference and we do not need to go into what happened involving these names, still it seems no lineage is without its politics.

I am not saying that Bagua and Wing Chun are the same nor even that they share a common ancestry. I am sure the application and the issuance of power is quite different. I am trying to get you to think about what it is that makes Wing Chun effective and to consider just what Wing Chun footwork is all about. Is it limited to the simple stepping forward with chain punches which many seem to think or is there a richer variety to be found within the system? Think about it. No one system/lineage is the most effective nor is one the "only" true method to practice. It is up to the student to explore and discover what it is that works for him/her within the system. Consider all of Yip Mans students and the fact that almost none of them do things exactly the same way. Wing Chun is a highly personal system and I think that if you look deep enough you will find what you need. As to if Bagua footwork is to be found within Wing Chun, I think there are many similarities between some of the stepping patterns. I think there is Internal Aspects to be found within Wing Chun and I think that there is more than one way to issue force. The key is to how far one wants to dig. I have always tried to get my students to seek thier own path and make Wing Chun thier own art, not a copy of mine per se. I believe there is a great variety within the system.

Perhpas, Fut Sao is the version closest to Bagua. Perhpas not. The important thing is that one be able to apply the art effectively. Still, I would appreciate any details available concerning Fut Sau.

Peace,

Dave