but no one can post a clip of what wing chun should look like in a fight, all people can do is say what it should be....dont you think there is a serious issue right there /Quote:
Originally Posted by BPWT..
but no one can post a clip of what wing chun should look like in a fight, all people can do is say what it should be....dont you think there is a serious issue right there /Quote:
Originally Posted by BPWT..
It's true what Alan said in his last post about Obvious Skill vs Hidden Skill and what it takes to recognize it, and that is the crux of the situation. Who'd've guessed it'd be you and KPM having trouble with this... :DQuote:
Originally Posted by BPWT..
Sure, I wouldn't have recognized that "reeling punch" as WC either, because it's not a part of my system or other WC systems I'm familiar with, but Alan has done a fine job of explaining how it differs and its place in their system. I didn't have a problem with the rest of the fight, and can't see what the problem is now.
BPWT, what exactly would you have liked Josh to have done differently in the fight posted?
Are you unhappy that he wasn't holding his hands in a classical wu Sao/man Sao configuration? Is it because he's not leaning back on one leg?
Or is it because he didn't chain punch the guy into oblivion?
From my standpoint he held his structure well and dominated the centre, constant aggressive forward pressure and great strikes. You don't train in our system, if you did you would be happy that Josh used his Wing Chun skills well.
My thoughts exactly! No one is trying to take away from what Alan and his guys have accomplished.Quote:
Originally Posted by BPWT..
Alan wrote:
If very clear that people with deeper layers of skill will be more aware of Hidden skills and people with less understand will look for the more Obvious skills - this is why people with lower levels always what to see a drill or basic training application work a fight. Its a lack of the understand in the levels of the system that brings these questions about.
Ok. I find it more than a little insulting to be told that I am "lower level" just because I don't agree with you, and just because I pointed out the obvious fact that without being told it was Wing Chun NO ONE would have recognized it as Wing Chun. Clear enough? And NO ONE here has said that they expect to see drills show up in a fighting scenario. I think both BPWT and I have made our points very clear. If you don't want to acknowledge or address them that is fine. But we haven't been anything but polite on this thread and have given you many kudos for what you are doing. Its too bad you don't see fit to treat us with the same level of respect.
Sure man - would love to train with him and mix it up with your guys system. That would be fun. If I'm ever around any of your guys I'll look them up. You've got some interesting stuff and I'd love to see your blend of WCK, takedowns and ground for MMA. I spar with some Bellator and WSOF pros so I might be OK. But yeah I'm sure going after Josh would make for a long afternoon :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Alan Orr
Well from the other perspective it sounds a little insulting to put all that work into preparing for a cage match with your WCK, dominate and do well, only to be told by the little dogs on the porch that "you are not doing WCK" because "it doesn't look like WCK".Quote:
Originally Posted by KPM
It's a serious issue, I guess, if people really want to see it in MMA. I know that sounds flippant, but I don't mean it as such. I mean that because I have no interest in competing, I can honestly say that I have never wondered why we don't see it in competition. In terms of a real fight, they hardly ever get recorded (actual martial artists fighting, I mean, as opposed to four drunk dudes outside of Tesco, arguing about who is next in line at the taxi rank, being monitored by CCTV).Quote:
Originally Posted by Frost
I had to laugh out loud at that... I mean... who can 'see' hidden skill? :D You know, it being hidden and all. And it is funny that the implication, therefore, is that you have to have "deeper layers of skill" to recognise what is hidden. ;) Which is great, as it means if people agree with Alan then they can quite conveniently lump themselves into that category.Quote:
Originally Posted by LFJ
On the other hand, BPWT doesn't "see it" because he is low level. :D
To be sure there are body mechanics that can't easily be seen - but seriously, this is a funny case to argue, IMO. I can't see the Wing Chun because it is "hidden skill" as opposed to all the clearly "obvious skills" and drill attributes demonstrated by Alan, which then seem to themselves become hidden (as most people who watch the clip can't see them).
Well, regarding the rest of the fight, if the video title had not said "Wing Chun" in it, are you honestly saying that you would have said, "That was a great example of someone applying Wing Chun," because you would have identified Wing Chun from what you saw?Quote:
Originally Posted by LFJ
I must have said it a hundred times, but I also don't have a problem with Josh winning the fight. He beat the other guy. That's the aim. I just don't agree with the comments around how he won it.Quote:
Originally Posted by LFJ
There is no problem now - I've said that I didn't see what looked like Wing Chun based on Alan's other, and various, videos. He disagrees. Okay, so we disagree. People keep asking me questions (like "how would you do against Josh?" etc,) so I've been answering them, and posed a similar question back.
Chris, I think I have repeated what I don't see in the video, maybe 5 times already. Just go back and read the posts. I even quoted from Alan's 'distance and range' video clip so it would be very clear where I see the contradiction between the aims and the result. Just have a read.Quote:
Originally Posted by chris bougeard
I think Alan said he had wasted enough time on this thread, so maybe you, Chris, can answer my question:
How would Robert Chu do if he stepped into the ring with one of Alan's top fighters? (Obviously Robert's skill in Wing Chun - "hidden" or otherwise - is far greater than Josh's, right?)
Again, we "little dogs" here haven't been the only ones that have said that. That's why Alan has posted more than one clip explaining why it was Wing Chun even if it didn't look like Wing Chun. I'll bet the "big dogs" in the MMA world have said the same thing. Alan posted a clip in a public forum. I made a simple observation that was not unique or unexpected. Look at the hubbub on this thread that resulted. If there wasn't truth in what I said, I would have just been dismissed as a crackpot and ignored. As a "little dog" no one would have paid me any attention at all! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayfaring
This was my original comment way back on page 1:
I like Alan Orr and what he is doing. But watching this clip I would not have thought this was Wing Chun if it wasn't in the tag line. To me, this is MMA with some WCK concepts included. This is not straight up Wing Chun. Wing Chun looks like Wing Chun because that is what it is. You can't do boxing with some Tan Sau's, Bong Sau's and WCK concepts and call it Wing Chun. That's Jeet Kune Do! I certainly appreciate the skill and athleticism shown in the video. But it gives me no idea of what his Wing Chun knowledge might be, or if he even does Wing Chun!
I still stand by that comment, regardless of the fact that I have been told that I "just don't know what I'm looking for" that I "don't understand" and that I am "low level" .....all because I expressed that simple opinion above!
Wayfaring, my teacher arranged a "treat" for me a while back. The treat was doing stand up and clinch sparring with Josh, he is a handful...Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayfaring
To be fair, everyone who questioned whether they could see WCK in the fight, also congratulated Josh and Alan for the win. Everyone has, in that sense, been respectful and applauded the obvious (not hidden) hard work that goes into being ready for such a fight (the hard training, the fitness and stamina work, the strength building, the diet changes, etc).Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayfaring
This was a MMA fight, and in my opinion it was won with MMA from a guy who deserved the win. But I can't say I see Wing Chun when I don't. And I can't believe that Josh and Alan really give a sh!t what some guy on the internetz says, so... :confused:
BPWT, you have mentioned bridging and quoted some of our methods regarding what you expect to see.
Have you actually ever sparred hard? I'm not talking about wearing full face guards and just chain punching each other. I train very hard all of our system and when we spar it never looks like a wing chun demo. I try to apply what I can, when I can. When intent is there to hit hard and overwhelm you can't just pick and mix strategies that may be recognisable to others as classical wing chun. Rather you are an opportunist who uses whatever the opponent presents.
If that means I simply eat the opponents space and use striking to control him, then that's what I'm going to do. If I get jammed up and need to strip an obstruction to carry on hitting, well I will do that also. Based on what I see in the clip he used what the opponent gave him, if a lap da had been appropriate he might have done that, but it wasn't.
It doesn't matter how much you want to use/see a particular strategy/technique in a violent exhange, if the opportunity ain't there you can't do it. Otoh, trying to shoe horn wing chun strategies/techniques into an exchange when the other guy isn't playing the wing chun game will get you into trouble fast. My views aren't theoretical, they're based on experience.
@ Chris.
Yes, I have and I do. Again, see my earlier posts.
And I agree you use what the opponent presents. Not sure I totally agree with the idea that if you "shoe horn wing chun strategies/techniques into an exchange when the other guy isn't playing the wing chun game that will get you into trouble fast."
I mean it can get you in trouble, but I try and work through that via the system. The way I approach sparring, regardless of the style or method the other guy is using, is to try and always play my own game. So I try to only use Wing Tsun strategies and methods. Things can get messy, but I'm trying to stick to the system. At times it might be easier to break away from the WT method and try to duck a punch, or throw a big haymaker :D but I work hard to not do this. I'd rather get knocked on my arse. I don't want to mix boxing with WT, or Muay Thai with WT, etc.
Where it gets me in trouble is when the other guy, simply, is better than me. (and that is often the case - like I said earlier) But that's the case with any person fighting someone who outclasses them with either skill or experience.
I have no problem with this. If someone is disciplining themselves to hold their lines and form while sparring, and they do spar realistically, that's a good thing. I'm not 100% sure of the Chi Kiu strategy of seeking a bridge, but I don't train that family lineage and terms can easily be confused.Quote:
Originally Posted by BPWT..
I still think it's a bit obtuse that you can't see any WCK in that fight clip. I sure see Robert Chu's hip in body methods reeling punches all over it, structure, linking and delinking, etc.. Maybe if you made a list of WCK elements outside of the hand shapes (tan, bong, fook) and started to list out the less obvious elements of WCK it might give you a different perspective. Or maybe not. No big deal. As far as an opening stance, if you have a back weighted WCK stance with a man sau / wu sau then like Asbel Cancio in the UFC you will probably get taken down as you have to move forward before even initiating a defense.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ywqK...ature=youtu.be
Has Lyota Machida ever had to explain why his MMA is Shotokan but doesn't look like Shotokan? Has Lyota Machida told people "you just don't understand what I am doing" or "you are just a low level guy and can't see it"? Has Lyota Machida ever said that he was using "hidden techniques" that aren't apparent to the uninitiated? Has anyone ever doubted that Machida is using Shotokan in his MMA? I can see the Shotokan in this clip and I've never even practiced Karate. I've practiced Wing Chun for several decades. Yet when me or BPWT point out that we don't see the Wing Chun in the clip that started this thread we fall under heavy criticism and get treated somewhat rudely? Really? Are we really the only ones that see a problem with that scenario?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BPWT..
And I laughed out loud when I read your post.
Hidden skill is standard kung fu. It means hidden as the movement is hard to see, but if you understand it you can see it's being used
Anyway. My teacher trained my guys and me. We have all been on the end of his skills for many years.
It's always a shock lol
Plus my question was not about getting in the ring it was on your terms - in the street - would you be able to hang with that level of attack. In the end that's what your training for self defence