This isn't a troll thread, or a who is better thread. Iam interested in developing a better ground game so I would like to know what you think the pros and cons of the various schools are. So far I am interested in :
Silat
Gracie BJJ
Machado BJJ
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This isn't a troll thread, or a who is better thread. Iam interested in developing a better ground game so I would like to know what you think the pros and cons of the various schools are. So far I am interested in :
Silat
Gracie BJJ
Machado BJJ
The main cons I see with Gracie JJ is the insane cost of instruction. I always tell people to just learn Judo and/or Wrestling. Its a heck of a lot cheaper, and more than likely you'll run into a bjj practioner since so many cross-train in Judo and Wrestling and vice versa.
In my opinion
no-gi submission grappling.
My submission club is like that, active rolling, no belts, prepreation for competing.
I honestly don't mean this as an insult, but you are too old to start Wrestling or Judo now.
Go with BJJ
I think Judo is the best for the street. You can become a master at throws, which is probably safer on the street. The ground work has a lot of great hold down which can be a safe way to end a fight without to much damage. And also it is cheap. I was going to a Judo school in NYC for 40$ a month. The teacher is a 6th degree black belt in his 60's and still competes.
I preffer judo as well. It's better to keep your feet if at all possible. Judo will teach you to do that, with the added bonus of teaching you what to do if you do go to the ground. In judo the goal of your ground game is either to restrain your opponent, or get up quickly. In BJJ once you hit the ground you tend to stay there; BIG no-no on the street. Too much chest thumping in Gracie JJ for my taste anyway.
And you aren't too old for judo either. :rolleyes:
Listen carefully, I'm talking about starting in one's 50s. No, it's not impossible or anything, but strategic choices should be made.
For example, I know people in their 50s who still wrestle, but they started 40+ years ago and know how to adjust for the issues that age bring to the situation. Someone starting wrestling at 50 is almost certainly going to get hurt alot and not get all that good at it anyway.
If anyone is interested look up Geprge Pasiuk in NYC. He was my teacher the 6th degree black belt who still competes. This is not a hard core judo school. You won't get injured there. The people are really nice also. This club has people who are training there that are in their 50's. I can think of two off the top of my head.
Well, perhaps at the judo school you trained at, this would be true. In my experience judo is much easier on the body than BJJ. After reconsidering, I concede that any style can be dangerous for any beginner, at any age, if the training is not graded to the physical ability of the practitioner.
So the best policy is probably to go and see how the individual teacher trains his students.
Search not only for a school that teaches quality ground techniques but also anti-ground techniques (in other words how to avoid going to the ground).
Oh brother, let's not start in on the 'anti-grapple' myth again!:rolleyes:
So nothing can stop grappling? I can think of a few things off the top of my head... bullets, pointy objects, getting the he1l outta the way...
I'm not worried about getting banged around-over 30 yrs in MA, Kyokushin,Hakko-Ryu,Hapkido,and that's before I got seriously into Hung Kuen. I'm pushin 50, but I still bang, and I let my students throw me, with or without mats, makes no differnce. Why let them have all the fun?
(ok, I might have exagerrated a bit on that "makes no differnce" part!);)
I'm just looking for the most efficient, and nastiest grappling skills. I don't want to rollaround on the ground like a dog for ten minutes, I just want to bust'em up, bring'em down, ground 'n pound, or break whatever I need to and get up and go. Really, the nastiest sheite possible.
"Old age and treachery will overcome youth and vigour":cool:
"dog"? Why would "dog" be the animal that comes to mind for that simile? Wouldn't a snake or something make more sense?
Anyway, if you are looking to impose limits on how long you can 'allow' yourself to work in that range, you are probably not going to get much of value.
Wow! Where are you training?!Quote:
In my experience judo is much easier on the body than BJJ.
I'm not trying to be a ****, I mean that seriously.... IME Judo is probably one of the hardest, bone crunching, joint-messing-up things out there.
Just really WOW.
Perhaps you just fall a hell of a lot better than me or something.
Re: the first question, it's really kind of a fallacious one.
There's good grappling and bad grappling. "Style" is really just shorthand for what you're going to get good at faster.
What unkokusai brings up about wrestling IS a valid point, but not so much in the sense that wrestling is inherently hard on the joints, any more than any other grappling style.... It's more that wrestlers in the United States are a tough crowd, more often than not preparing for competition, and the intensity level is usually extremely high. This, regardless of what you talk to the coach or other students about, is going to affect you. Ex wrestlers at BJJ class who haven't been doing BJJ for very long are extremely and effectively aggressive.
I tend to disagree about starting Judo now. You could definitely do that IF you pick the right place. If you find a recreational judo club, you would probably be fine. But Judo is absolutely not easy on the body. Falling hurts and when you do it wrong/don't have the opportunity to fall correctly cause it was a sweet throw, it will **** YOU UP. Just ask my surgically repaired left shoulder :P
Competition Judo is brutal and the training is correspondingly so.
BJJ tends to have far fewer jarring impacts, and injuries are usually genuine accidents as opposed to the consequences of the grappling. You are unlikely to learn any truly solid takedown skills, but that will depend on your instructor(s).
However, one often overlooked benefit of BJJ, is that you get to dictate whether or not the fight is going to STAY on the ground. I've got a brown belt in BJJ, and there are a very small number of people in this world who can keep me on the ground - not like I'm a badass, just that not many people train to KEEP you on the ground - not even Judoka, and I spend a lot of time learning how to escape. Escaping on the ground is a tremendously useful skill, and one that requires just as much practice as anything else.
That said, if you don't "want to roll around on the ground like a dog for ten minutes," then I'd say you aren't approaching this with an open mind, and kind of missing the point as well. No offense intended, but you might want to consider that.
May be the best post on this board in a long time.Quote:
Yeah, better grappling. Not empty marketing slogans.
yeah, don't train in anything that one might consider the anti-grappling, or ways to not go to the ground myth. because all traditional systems have no clinching or pummelling. these are only found in grappling. pay attention to maybe fedor or krocop too. krocop never trains anything that one might consider anti-grappling or ways to not go to the ground myth. as the fight begins he just goes to the middle of the ring and falls down in guard. oh no, yeah he trains that too, but he also trains grappling. so...:eek:
Falling to the guard is stupid, even if you're Nogeura.
What we are saying Tao Yin, is that Anti-Grappling is a myth. It's a stupid awful, bull**** myth perpetuated by people who don't understand grappling, or are looking to make a quick buck off people who don't want to confront reality.
What beats grappling is better grappling. That doesn't mean you have to be an overall better grappler. It means that you have to concentrate on grappling defenses and escapes, and make them better than a "good grappler." The striking oriented fighters you cited are evidence of precisely what I am talking about.
But these are, by definition, grappling. Grappling is nothing more than maniuplation of the body through grabbing with the limbs (underhook, overhooks, leg hooks, crossfaces, etc) or hands (wrist control, etc). In case you hadn't noticed, sprawling, escaping from the bottom, and other such defenses involve a significant amount of body manipulation using these types of manuevers.
It would be like practicing "anti-striking." You notice that nobody ever says such stupid crap. There is "practicing your defenses," but nothing so blatantly ridiculous as "I'm going to go learn some anti-striking."
Please.
To address your other point, nobody is suggesting that other arts don't have the clinch and takedowns. However, who is going to have perfected those things? Would you go to a Judoka to learn to kick?
Here's something to consider - what makes Chuck Liddell so dangerous? Is it his heavy hands? Well, Tank has heavy hands, but he pretty much sucks in comparison to top competition.
Oh wait....it's Chuck's exceptional wrestling background that enables him to use grappling to keep his feet to EMPLOY his heavy hands.
I suppose though, that Randy Couture defeated him once because of his "anti-striking skills." :rolleyes:
But hey, anybody on this thread - feel free to listen to who you want - either me and unkokusai, who have collectively grappled and by definition have defended against grappling maneuvers for probably 30+ years, or somebody who advocates "anti-grappling."
Ten Tigers,
I went to a Swai Jiao class in Manhattan and really liked what I saw. Not that they just worked on throws, joint locks, and takedowns, but they also worked on escapes from the ground. There were a few grappling background guys working out (rolling) with them and they were impressed as well. The thing was, that when they usually took the guy's down, the Swai Jiao guys still always seemed to be in control of the grappling. Just about always falling on top of the guy and landing with force.
Once it went to the ground, they weren't down there too long before they had escaped back to their feet. I saw one of the grapplers trying that fall to guard, it looked pretty stupid against these guys. I don't know the level of the grapplers, but they seemed to know their stuff. I know one guy is training for an upcoming MMA fight I didn't hear where though.
These guys are students of James Man Chin through Grand Master Jeng, Hsing Ping. I'm not sure if you're interested in Swai Jiao since you didn't list it, just thought i'd bring it to the table. I myself did some wrestling back yrs ago, and have rolled with Bjj ppl of various levels, I was impressed with them.
jeff:)
I dunno - I'm only 30! :)
But to get back on point:
The right answer here is to go to a few different places offering grappling styles you think you might be interested in, and find the best instructor and best environment you can.
It's less about style and more about quality, IMO.
Then we break the 40 mark :D
5 years Wrestling, 5 or 6 of BJJ...
:cool:
Merryprankster,
I was joking, completely. Did you miss that? I was making fun of both sides of the argument. I know what you are saying. I have known. You have been saying the exact same thing for however long you have been on here, in almost every other post no less. Your opinion has never changed. But I was making fun of both sides of the argument. And if it didn't look like I was, then bam, I just changed it for you. Who cares? Don't take things so seriously. If you were not competing you would never be fighting anyway. We cool now? Im just fuggin wid ya.
Oh.
Oops. Sorry. Touched a nerve.
I'm going to go bang my head against a wall and cry now. :D
Since you have defined the meaning of "Anti-grappling" I see your point. By "anti-grappling" I take it you and unkokusai mean all the things likes "eye gouges, and groin kicks and throat strikes, oh my!" that are touted as anti-grappling strategies. In that case, I agree, that stuff is bull, especially since NO ONE practices arts that feature those techniques prominently, or is able to practice them against resistance on a regular basis.
As far as your point about "Anti-striking" I originally THOUGHT that was the implication behind saying Anti-Grappling was a myth (i.e. "Grappling is the best way to approach a fight! Nothing beats it, therefore striking is pointless!" kinda stuff.) I apologize for my misconception. The points you've made have been good, sound ones. Thanks :)
:confused:
Huh? Touched a nerve? I don't understand why you still don't understand? Your idea and answer, off and on as it suits you, is usually, "What beats good striking? grappling." What beats good grappling? grappling." Then you will turn around and answer good striking for beating striking every now and again. Either or, neither nor, its endless and always will be, hence cross-training. One good shot ends the fight. One good submission ends the fight. One terrible shot wins the fight. One terrible submission wins the fight. Something in the middle, a kick this way or that way.
You label it too much. Why? That is my point. Seriously, and as humbly as I can say this, nothing in this world that you could or would ever say would touch any nerve of mine. I don't live in the same box you do. Like I said, I'm just fuggin wit ya and it doesn't matter. Giving you a head check for fun because no-one else will besides the few people that you roll with and the few people that you compete with. I've looked in the mirror and I didn't care what I saw. I wasn't pleased or not pleased. Anyways,
:D
Touched a nerve on me. Not "I touched a nerve w/you."
Sigh. :eek:
But to answer the rest of it, I don't put things in boxes, nor do I advocate grappling as "the answer." It's part of a total package.
Sound delivery system - that's it. Don't care what it is somebody does/doesn't do as long as they throwdown with partners under something simulating reality - if they are claiming to "learn to fight."
Me? I suffer no illusions as to what I do. I'm mostly a sport grappler. I don't pretend to train for fighting. I'm not in this for self-defense or "reality."
My only "box" is that if you want to effectively employ stand-up striking, you need to stay on your feet, know how to get up. If you want to effectively employ grappling strategies, you need to know how to take somebody down.
That's pretty much it.
But whatever floats your boat in your post bro. Enjoy.
Haha. Well, first off, I probably do fall better than most because I used to be thrown about twice as often as my peers. ;)
Anyhow, I was going to get all indignant and mention how I did judo between the ages of nine and twenty five and wrestled in high school and blah blah blah... but then I realized that in spite of the years I have practiced judo, I have no idea what I'm talking about! I've never tried the art as an older person, and my body was considerably more flexible and resilient than it is today. So I'll concede to those with more extensive grappling experience than I have. I still plan on taking judo up again though as soon as I reach shodan in aikido.
It'll be fun to be matched against young brown belts who think the old white belt will be a piece of cake... maybe I'll actually start winning for a change. Then again I may just break easier.
a judo class gave me a concussion. It is brain rattling. There are some JJ/ grappling schools where they do a lot of cross-training in Judo.
this school's teacher has a black belt in Judo (but doesn't teach it at his school because of his close proximity to his Judo masters school)
www.steelcitymartialarts.com
Sometimes BJJ schools don't train takedowns very well, it all depends on where you go.
Honestly, I believe it is good to have an understanding of the grappling arts. Mainly, you should know what to look for when you're up against a grappler, how to get out of his techniques or avoid them all together. I have been training in stand up arts for about 15 years and I have trained in brazillian jiu jitsu/ MMA. Let me tell you ground fighting and grappling is not the answer to all confrontations. It should not even be an option in a real street fight, especially if there is potential for multiple opponents. What good is doing an arm bar on one guy while you have one guy stomping on your in the face and another kicking you in the ribs? If a man takes me to the ground I'm going to jam my thumb into his eye, bite his face or do whatever I have to do to get back on my feet. Sure grappling has its place, I'm a firm believer in that. Presently, all you hear about is grappling like it's something new or something. Grappling has been around every bit as long as the striking arts have. It just happens to be the "flavor of the month." Not that it's a great example of this, but look at who's winning a majority of the MMA matches and how they're winning. Chuck Liddell, hmmm, striker. Matt Hughes, sure he's great grappler, as a matter of fact he's probably one of the best wrestlers in the country in his weight class. But let me ask you, how did he beat Royce Gracie, one of the most reknown grapplers in the world? The answer is ground and pound. I'm not trying to talk **** or anything, but what good does it do knowing all the grappling techniques in the world if you get knocked out? If you do end up on the ground and someone does put you in an arm bar, I guarantee that they're going to let go when you bite a chunk out of their leg. If you plan on doing it competitively in jiu jitsu competition then I'm all for that, and I hope you have a fun time with it.
Contrary to your statement, methinks you haven't done any BJJ.
Matt beat Royce with classic BJJ strategy... takedown; pass the guard; control and look for submisions in side mount; work to improve position to mount/back mount; finish on back with hooks in with either strikes or RNC.
In my experience, people who bite when put into an arm bar usually get their arms broken.