crowding the space

Every system of wing chun teaches and preaches this, and every system practices this (from my understanding) to crowd the space of your opponet. However, since we all know this, do we really know it though, and do we really practice it.


A lot can be said the in minor details of combat, it can be a game of inches, it can be a game of seconds, it can be a game of weight, so on and so forth.

Its like I know a lot about the wing chun system. I get told stuff on a daily basis when training. I know the answers, but sometimes even though I know the answer, I don't really know it.

I see a lot of chi sao videos of people staying within trapping range of their opponet, striking a lot at close distances. Which is not a bad thing, but is it really crowding the space? Are you not also allowing time and space for your opponet to do the same to you. If you took all of your opponets space out of the equation wouldn't they have harder time to react or act upon what you were doing?

Just some crazy ideas.

I think When you crowd the space, both parties are still sharing whether it be 50-50 or 20-80. this leaves room for counter motion.

then there is occupying the space which means you own it and can do with it what you please.

you just have to recognize whether or not you are occupying the line then you may strike. prior to that you are just waiting for the harmony to be broken.

Hello,

There is a difference between crowding someone in a haphazard fashion and occupying space in a manner which is advantageous to you and disadvantageous to your opponent. I think that many people confuse the concepts commonly spouted in Wing Chun, and other arts. For example, the idea of crowding an opponent does not mean crashing into them without maintaining your own structure. In some cases it could be more beneficial to maintain a little distance rather than “crowd” the opponent. On the other hand, many people are uncomfortable with fighting at a close range and being closer can serve to offset your opponent both mentally and physically. There can be a definite mental aspect to the idea of crowding your opponent as well as the physical element.

I think that the whole concept of “crowding” is better thought of as you occupying the space between you and your opponent in a manner which puts you into a position of control while offsetting the opponent’s ability to exert like control. For example, in our approach we work on the idea of a power zone. Simply stated the power zone is the optimal position to control and exert pressure on your opponent. This positioning will allow you to exert and take control while minimizing the ability of the opponent to attack you. A common drill or approach may be to step off to the side of an attack and be in a position to strike while the opponent will now need to either step or shift position to strike you. In most cases your position will be very close to the opponent. However, crowding may not be the best word as it seems to denote an impression of neither one of you being in real control, at least in my mind.

The difference between controls can be measured in fractions not wholes. Just some thoughts to move this thread along, it seems like discussions about actual concepts or application are often overlooked or not as popular.

Peace,

Dave

Quote:

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Every system of wing chun teaches and preaches this, and every system practices this (from my understanding) to crowd the space of your opponet. However, since we all know this, do we really know it though, and do we really practice it.

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--Gangsterfist to get to the heart of your questions we need to first define the term "space" in the context in which you use the term.

Gangsterfist sez:

Every system of wing chun teaches and preaches this, and every system practices this (from my understanding) to crowd the space of your opponet.
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Sure- but one has to know what they are doing.
Knowledge and experience are the key virtues.

Gangsterfist sez:

Every system of wing chun teaches and preaches this, and every system practices this (from my understanding) to crowd the space of your opponet.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sure- but one has to know what they are doing.
Knowledge and experience are the key virtues.

I am not sure exactly how to explain this, but I made a connection between chi sao, the dummy form, and sparring a few weeks ago after one of my seniors was talking about crowding the space, or occupying the space.

You sense or create an opportunity to occupy all of your opponets space. You move in and execute techs, strikes, whatever and the space you occupy as a symptom, takes away your opponets ability to act.

A lot of times I see this inbetween trapping range and clench range. You are not trying to clench your opponet but you are definately in that range. It takes away the exchanging strikes game. If I can hit my opponet 10 times in trapping range, more than likely they can also hit me. Assuming level of skill is about the same in each opponet. Someone who is significantly higher skilled with a higher level of attributes definately has the upper hand.

This can also disable your opponets weapons. I am just going to assume everyone is familiar with the bodies 13 different weapons concept? If not I can explain it.

Positioning plays a part in occupying the space as well. Obviously you cannot occupy or crowd the space when you are 15 feet away, unless you are really good or have mystical powers :)

Joy,

I agree with you, you do need the knowledge and experience to get something like this off and maintain control of yourself.

45degree-

I am talking about occupying space that does not give your opponet great opportunities, putting them in a situation where they would have to execute something drastic to gain ground again.

This is not really lineage specific nor is it something complicated. Its simple, just realizing it and executing it are different things. Knowing the theory is one thing, applying it is something along the same lines, but different also. I have known this since early on in my training, but just recently made a connection of what I think its really all about. Who know though, perhaps I am wrong, and I am still playing with the idea in sparring situations. Today, I kept making one of my fellow class mates resolve to grabbing my arms because he felt really uncomfortable when I got really close. It was just his natural human reaction to grab my arms because he had not really been put in situations like that before.

In retrospect, when you go in, go in don't hesitate. If you do you are just making yourself a target, and also if not executed properly you could find yourself in a clench. Its not as easy as it sounds. However, I am finding out it something wing chun may be all about.

Agreed, most people consider trapping in a manner that is nice and neat and tight is crowding. It's not. Occupying your opponent's centreline does not mean "having the line" during chi sau as there are many lines and as a result many other factors to consolidate. It means being where your opponent was initially standing, not by pushing him out of the way, or getting as close to him as possible. By taking him out, taking him down, taking him wherever you want using your hand, foot, and body work.

When Occupying space, yes there are many different lines in effect.
Tie all those lines together and you now can recognize gates.

Something enters your gate clear it out and occupy that space.

This is true with: Chi sao, Sparing, Drilling, Fighting, Chess, Bumper Cars etc. ha ha

Everyone has the same type of concepts not just through lineages but also different styles and systems use these concepts.

self expression and choice of words are what makes the ideas somtimes seem worlds apart.