Not sure if I posted a similar reply but the ignored ne-waza of judo (after 1945 ???) became the BJJ of Gracie and whjat we know today as the latter art. Maeda studied Judo but it seemed that after the war, only throwing appeared to have been emphasized in modern Japan so when he taught the ground techniques, everyone thought that it was new when it just was not practiced post WW2. The Brazilians became naturals of BJJ as it approximated their sport art of capoeira!
Judo's de-emphasizing of ground work (besides pins) was due to the fact that as it became a sport ( eventually an Olympic one) the ground work was viewed as boring and time consuming ( and still is).
Now, there are many systems of judo ( while Kodokan is the mother style), many masters decided to NOT strictly focus on Olympic comps and retained the 50-50 balance of stand up and ground work.
Combat Judo as they tend to refer to themselves ( systems like Kawashiki Judo) are more fighting oriented, more self-defense oriented and keep a balance of ne-waza and nage-waza and strikes are incorporated in BOTH aspects of the game.
BJJ toke the ground work of basic judo and put it on a whole other level and submission grappling took it even beyond that.
That said, outside or grappling purists, you won't see much popularity of grappling only tournaments, certainly not compared to boxing or whatever.
As for MMA, it will always be about using what works best in the ring, period. Regardless of where it comes from.
BJJ will remain the number-one ground grappling system for MMA. As far as grappling in MMA in general, judo is definitely coming into its own in that regard. But will it ever be as sought out or as common as BJJ and wrestling? I don't know.
The first MA I ever studied was judo, so there will always be a special place in my heart for it. IMO, very few MAs give a youngster a better all-around introduction and base for MA training than judo. At the dojo I trained at back in the '70s, it must have been a somewhat older version. The sensei was highly-ranked and elderly (he had briefly taught my brother ten years previously). The students competed successfully in judo events, and the assistant instructor had once been world-ranked. But besides the throwing, there was also emphasis on pins and submissions, as well as some very rudimentary strikes and knees. There wasn't any talk of Olympic judo during class. For the longest time, I just assumed most judo was taught like that.
Although I don't see BJJ being supplanted as the main grappling art in MMA anytime soon, I will say that between the two (I also spent time in BJJ), I personally much preferred judo. But judo is nowhere near as easy to find in any city these days as BJJ. BJJ is everywhere, it's highly effective (IMO, the best for pure ground grappling), and it's inextricably linked with MMA.
That's an opinion. The problem with Judo is that the prejudices and goals of its founder permenantly limits the style from achieving the amount of variation you see in Bjj. That's why I said that Bjj will always stay one step ahead. Judo was created to be a sport. Bjj was created as a method of street fighting. This allows Bjj to absorb outside influences while Judo is forced to adhere to strict rules and guidelines.Quote:
Originally Posted by MightyB
LoL!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucas
Do they teach striking in Judo? Do they teach you how to grapple when someone is on top of you and punching/elbowing you in the face in Judo? Do they show you how to grapple and throw without a gi?
Bjj does.
http://img.izismile.com/img/img6/201...ump_470_15.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by BigPandaBear
and yours in an opinion as well and not correct reallyQuote:
Originally Posted by BigPandaBear
It wasn’t developed to be a sport, what made Judo different from the other Ryu was that he placed a great emphasis on randori (free practise) and the principles of seiryoku zen'yō (精力善用?, maximum efficiency, minimum effort) and jita kyōei (自他共栄?, mutual welfare and benefit).
Far from being restrictive kanos judo included strikes, throws and ground work, what we see as modern judo is as a direct result of judo becoming an olpymic sport something kano did not want to happen precisely because he thought it would become to restrictive and place to much emphasis on winning and not growth
Kano was all for variation he brought in the firemans carry for example from wrestling, and various single and double leg attacks because they were effective
Yes judo in kanos time taught all of the above apart from grappling without a gi, what judo has become is not what Kano wanted, much like GJJ (which is what you are talking about) has morphed into BJJ, and most BJJ classes dont teach striking these days they are strict sporting places and people go elsewhere to learn MMA and strikingQuote:
Originally Posted by BigPandaBear
That proves my point. You never see anything crazy like that in Judo.Quote:
Originally Posted by MightyB
The difference is that there's still thousands of GJJ schools world wide.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frost
Where's the Judo school teaching old school Judo? They don't even teach Kano style Judo at the Kodokan.
Out side of the Gracie's were are the old school BJJ places teaching standing self defence as taught by helio, his knife defense and striking stuff? There aren't any just like judo bjj has evolved away from what it was intended forQuote:
Originally Posted by BigPandaBear
To the extent that if a bjj school does have guys in MMA they have to get wrestling and Thai coaches, BJJ is now a specialized grappling art just like judo, GJJ is like kosen judo, like the art was meant to be but so few doing it its irrelevant ..
There are a handful of GJJ schools teaching it as helio wanted, heck even direct family members like renzo and Carlson jr teach BJJ as a grappling sport only
LOL! I'd love to see this happen in UFC just once.Quote:
Originally Posted by BigPandaBear
Again, there are thousands of Gracie schools who teach old school Bjj, and there are zero Judo schools teaching striking or old school Judo. How can you say that its the same situation?Quote:
Originally Posted by Frost
Where is a Kosen Judo school? Let me know when you find one.Quote:
To the extent that if a bjj school does have guys in MMA they have to get wrestling and Thai coaches, BJJ is now a specialized grappling art just like judo, GJJ is like kosen judo, like the art was meant to be but so few doing it its irrelevant ..
And there's other family members like Relson and Rickson that don't.Quote:
There are a handful of GJJ schools teaching it as helio wanted, heck even direct family members like renzo and Carlson jr teach BJJ as a grappling sport only
If anyone is going to bjj or judo looking for striking they're stupid. In todays martial world, anyone halfway serious knows this. Someone who already has a striking foundation, Imo, can make better use out of judo in real life, if you live in a part of the world where staying on your feet in a fight makes the most sense. The vast majority of people wear clothes where I live. Likewise due to the climate, for the majority of the year, they are wearing heavier clothing.
Nonsense. Gracie Jiu-Jitsu will teach you better transitions than Judo because they actively incorporate striking into their takedowns and ground fighting. They'll also teach you how to throw and grapple someone without the gi.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucas
Judo won't.
The vast majority of Judo schools are forced to teach sport rules because their dojos are subsidized by various athletic agencies. In places like that, you're going to be taught only sport Judo, not self-defense based Judo. A prime example of this problem is wrist locks. In Judo, wrist locks are illegal, so guess what? You're not going to learn wrist locks. On the other hand, wrist locks are legal in even sport Bjj, so you're going to learn wrist locks in Bjj no matter where you go.
Gjj gyms are privately owned, so they can teach whatever they want. This includes Self Defense, No-gi, competition, etc. Some schools even offer other arts like MT kickboxing. Renzo's school for example does this, and they actively incorporate it into their Bjj (because of his MMA background). Again, you're not going to find that in a Judo dojo.