Which style is this move from?

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09-28-2015, 10:29 AM
Cataphract

Which style is this move from?

Please tell me from which style/form this technique comes from.

Stand in horse stance. Left arm does a sweeping low block while right hand does an inside block, forearms rotating clockwise around elbow. Then switch sides, forearms rotating counterclockwise. I have seen it performed by southern stylists, but never in context, e.g. this video at 00:41 as a "bad example".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5W_72qh3z7Q

Is it related to the cloud hands of Taichi and Taizu Chang or more of an outside trapping shield catch? It is also found in Karate's Pinan/Heian.
09-29-2015, 07:04 AM
David Jamieson

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cataphract

Please tell me from which style/form this technique comes from.

Stand in horse stance. Left arm does a sweeping low block while right hand does an inside block, forearms rotating clockwise around elbow. Then switch sides, forearms rotating counterclockwise. I have seen it performed by southern stylists, but never in context, e.g. this video at 00:41 as a "bad example".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5W_72qh3z7Q

Is it related to the cloud hands of Taichi and Taizu Chang or more of an outside trapping shield catch? It is also found in Karate's Pinan/Heian.

It's a shaolin prerequisite skill (18 lo han) and the school appears to be wing chun.
09-29-2015, 12:06 PM
Cataphract

Plucking Stars in a horse stance

Hi, thank you for the answer.

You mean it is a martial application of Plucking Stars from the 18 Luohan Hands qi gong? Yes, it definitely seems related to that.

I am not convinced it is part of a Wing Chun system though. I've seen it done before in a wide horse stance.
09-29-2015, 06:14 PM
bawang

this is called a downward block
09-30-2015, 05:52 AM
David Jamieson

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cataphract

Hi, thank you for the answer.

You mean it is a martial application of Plucking Stars from the 18 Luohan Hands qi gong? Yes, it definitely seems related to that.

I am not convinced it is part of a Wing Chun system though. I've seen it done before in a wide horse stance.

The prerequisite skills are "styles" in and of themselves. The principles and concepts are ported across many styles. Iron palm for instance is done in many styles. 5 stances port across most all kung fu. Basic kicks, punches and throws too and chin na is also across many styles. They are a set of skills that can be trained by anyone in any style or without a style at all.
09-30-2015, 02:03 PM
brothernumber9

To me his emphasis and posture look very "hakka" to me. I would guess that this teacher has learned something in the lines of White Eyebrow/Yau Kung Moon/ Kei Lun/ Southern Mantis/ etc, potentially an old branch of wing chun. Perhaps some of or multiple of these type of systems, but his posture and emphasis leads me to believe that is where his background lies.
09-30-2015, 02:27 PM
Cataphract

Master Tio Tek Kwie's (the man in the video) lineage can be googled. There is some strange debate going on about what his style exactly is, but that is not really related to my question. I believe this specific motion crosses style borders. I really have to look into those prerequisite skills. Maybe it is really just one of those ubiquitous techniques, but it seems weird to me. I think its origin might be narrowed down to Fujian, or Hakka, or some such group of styles.

If it was really just a block downward, e.g. against two consecutive kicks or punches, both arms usually should go in circles. Downward on the inside, upward on the outside like a sideways figure 8.
The movement I am talking about is rather x shaped forming a hyperbola, going downward on the inside and upward the same way.
The Tai Chi cloud hands I've seen take the middle ground, being rather square and "box shaped".

Chiu Chi Ling teaches one half as a defense against chokes.
Here seems to be an Applicaton from Hung Fut at 1:34 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfqYosVwLWQ
In a Hung Fut Form done really fast at 6:37 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSs_-273Xes
And one example while stepping from Incense Shop Boxing at 3:30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmXwiaRsd3Y

So maybe it is from Hung Gar or Fut Gar. The first guy I saw doing it might have been training Choy Lee Fut, according to his uniform.
09-30-2015, 06:19 PM
RenDaHai

If you made two people pad up and fight all day and didn't teach them anything but rather told them to create their own martial art, this move would evolve pretty early on.

It doesn't come from any style, it would be easier to name the styles it doesn't appear in.

Too many different names, the name will usually include the hand gesture as well as the arm so there will be a huge number of differently named manifestations of this movement.

Why so interested in this movement?
09-30-2015, 07:53 PM
Firehawk4

It could Fujian Wing Chun , this style was listed on a old website as being some kind of Lohan style .
10-01-2015, 12:45 AM
Cataphract

Quote:

Originally Posted by RenDaHai

Why so interested in this movement?

It is an elegant and fun movement. Sort of like doing John Travolta's signature move from Saturday Night Fever in front of an assailant.

This is arguably the weirdest movement I have seen in a form. Hard to get your large muscle groups behind it in an unweighted stance, so probably rather trapping or deflecting than bashing. It is also dangerous to do with anything sharper or more pointy than maracas in your hands.

Yet Karate teaches it early on in a beginner form. Clearly somebody has found self defense value in it. I can see the use of zig, but zigzag? Anyhow styles seem to agree on zigzag. Strange.
10-01-2015, 04:51 AM
RenDaHai

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cataphract

This is arguably the weirdest movement I have seen in a form. Hard to get your large muscle groups behind it in an unweighted stance, so probably rather trapping or deflecting than bashing. It is also dangerous to do with anything sharper or more pointy than maracas in your hands.

Yet Karate teaches it early on in a beginner form. Clearly somebody has found self defense value in it. I can see the use of zig, but zigzag? Anyhow styles seem to agree on zigzag. Strange.

Is what you find weird the concept of guarding high and low simultaneously or rather the transition from doing this on one side then the other? Because I have frequently found myself guarding my groin and face simultaneously even when only being attacked at one of them, just as a natural reaction. But if you find its the transition you find weird rather than the guarding structure then I see your point.
10-01-2015, 07:38 AM
Jimbo

As RenDaHai has stated, this movement is in countless systems and is not particular to any one style.

The way this movement (or concept) often appears in forms does not mean it's designed to be used rotating one side then the other in continuous circles. That's simply a way of practicing the movement. Combined with footwork during application, it might only be done once, from one side, followed by an offensive attack or counter.
10-02-2015, 03:28 AM
Cataphract

Quote:

Originally Posted by RenDaHai

But if you find its the transition you find weird rather than the guarding structure then I see your point.

Yes, that is what I meant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimbo

The way this movement (or concept) often appears in forms does not mean it's designed to be used rotating one side then the other in continuous circles. That's simply a way of practicing the movement.

Agreed. It could be an abstract motion meant to teach a general principle and build muscle memory. But this argument could be applied to every move that is not obvious on first sight.

Btw., I have found an application from Tim Cartmell that convinces me. It involves blocking while attacking the floating rib and a quarter nelson.