Here is the original article.
Opinions?
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Here is the original article.
Opinions?
If i am serious about training at a school then yes I would sign a contract.
You can't have your cake and eat it to...... and the article has several false statements as well
"Curb Your Enthusiasm
The Contract is an irrevocable commitment to a full year of Karate instruction. Should you decide to quit training for any reason—injury, lack of interest, work and family obligations, et cetera—you will nevertheless be obligated to continue paying tuition until The Contract has expired."
FALSE - state law in several states (NY included) states that a medical excuse provided by a license medical professional is legal grounds to end a contract. In addition, relocation either of yourself or the school beyond certain radius is also grounds for ending the contract
As for stopping to go just because of your "lack of interest"? LOL, so you got a deal (contracts are always for REDUCED RATES) but you don't want to honor your end just because you are lazy?
A contract is TWO SIDED.....
"If you fail to honor this commitment, your delinquent account will be sent to a collection agency."
Yes, you're an adult, and if you agree to enter into a contract you should meet it... what are you? 12?
"The Contract allows your dojo to relocate itself ten miles away from its original location, replace its best instructors with bad ones, or shift class dates and times such that you cannot attend. Even if all these should come to pass, you will be required to submit your monthly payments until the term of The Contract is completed."
And if my aunt had a di ck she'd be my uncle? If you go to the wrong doctor, you might die on the operating table, so you should never seek medical help?
Most schools that use contracts are professional, they have large staff and they have lots of classes. I offer day and night, over 30 classes a week, when people say "I can't find time" it usually means "I am too lazy to come", that's REALITY
"Some people, such as Shotokan expert Rob Redmond, advise against signing any Karate contracts whatsoever."
Who is Rob Redmond? Does he run a school? Maybe he is that guy who can barely pay his rent and lives in his parent's basement but he's "proud not to be a sell out" :rolleyes:
"Yes, these contracts serve to indemnify the school against its own mismanagement, at the student’s expense."
Or, look at it this way, the protect a school against inconsiderate students who committ to a period of time, and then aren't adult enough to keep their word
"There aren’t many colleges or universities that accept tuition payments on a month-to-month basis."
BINGO!
Go to NYU and tell them you want to pay per class you attend and if you don't complete the semester you want a refund......
We keep turing adults into irresponsible infants in this society, time to man up and be an adult
ditto.
But then a lot of people who are already involved in martial arts for some time will know if the school is going to be of benefit to them.
providing its a pretty standard contract there is nothing wrong. its just a matter of course in todays world.
of course not all schools have them, the current school i am in is just 50 bucks a month, come as you please, and a waiver for injury/death.
of course its not high volume.
The article is far to short and does not cover much ground. lkfmdc has pretty much said all I was going to say.
I can only add that no-one can force you to sign a contract and if they do it invalidates it.
If you want to train at a school that requires one then just read the bloody thing and sign it if you understand and agree to the terms.
Alot of schools are requiring contracts now as more martial arts classes become real businesses. Having a contract from the schools point of view means that money collection can be done by direct debit on a regular date with no unreasnable arguments and allow them to plan and operate their business more effectively.
It also should make people realize that they are making a commitment for a specified period of time and that if they want your experties, they must pay for them.
That said you should make sure you are happy with a class before signing a contract and I would be suspicious of any school that does not offer a trial period.
Too true. I have had a very hard time making it to my classes lately. I talked to my Sifu about it, and he has switched me over to either 1 half hour private class or the beginners classes that I can make. (Can't go back to intermediate untill I get the go-ahead due to loss of conditioning issues) He prefers I make the beginner's classes, but if it doesn't happen, I calla nd tell him, then go in for a private.
If you really want it, you'll find a way.
in a word
no
if a school wants to keep your business then the teachers should be up to scratch and you should be suitably impress the teachers should lead by example and if u dont want to come anymore it should be your loss not the schools
OR.... maybe a sifu doesn't want to be bothered with a person who can't make any committment whatsoever to him?
Why should I spend several hours explaining a technique to you if tomorrow you decide you'd rather go on a picnic and never do kung fu again?
YOu just don't want to come anymore? Well, we paid our rent, we paid our staff, we showed up to teach the classes, we did all that so you could train, but you can't be bothered to get off your lazy butt so screw us?
Most mcdojos I've seen, especially the giant moneymaking ones, are very fond of contracts. That doesn’t mean that all schools that use contracts are mcdojos though.
Let’s say you get somebody who signs up for your school. Let’s say it’s a year contract. Let’s say that after a week he decides it’s not for him. Is it fair that he should pay for the year? I know I know, “He signed the contract.” :rolleyes:
But wouldn’t it be more logical for him just to have paid a fee at the beginning of the month and that's it. This way if he decides to leave after a week, he'll only be paying for the month. Hell, he is still paying for a month's worth of instruction when he only came to classes for a week. You make out on that deal. It seems grossly unfair to me that he pays a year's tuition for a week's worth of instruction.
This is why Americans suck at everything, no work ethic. What can you learn in a week? For that matter, what can you learn in a month? Do you think great musicians learned their trade in a month? :rolleyes:
How about the idea of sticking out something even if it doesn't give you instant gratification? How about the idea of hard work? How about the idea of being an adult for lord's sake!
What is "unfair" is that he isn't giving the instructor time to actually teach him something! If he, gasp, actually showed up for class for a couple of months maybe, gasp, he'd learn somethng and make some progress....
I want to be a doctor, but is there any way I can just try out medical school for a month?
So according to you, are all Americans who excel at anything are an anomaly? :rolleyes:
But how many people join martial arts schools to become great martial artists? Or how's about this, how many people really know what it takes to become a great martial artist? A lot of people that join martial arts schools drop out after a little while. Some find that martial arts, or that particular style or school, is not for them. I don't think it's fair to penalize them for it.
I don't see it as having anything to do with being an adult. You either like something or you don't. If you don't need to, why put hard work into something you don't like? Maybe that person prefers another style or school. Maybe he'll work hard at another style or school. Or maybe he just doesn't like martial arts.
Once again, maybe martial arts, or that particular style or school, isn't for him.
There are quite a few people (including myself) that feel the education system is a total wreck. So I don't think that the martial arts world should strive to emulate such a thing.
On a side note, do you really have to give a "thumbs down" to something just because you disagree with it? To me it comes off as antagonistic.
No but I'm sure you could do some college courses in anatomy or similar and then commit to 7 years (or however long it takes in America) training to be a doctor.
As I said before I have no problems with signing up for a contract but I would want to try out the place first for a few weeks. If they sign and decide to leave after a few more weeks then it is their problem.
Is that supposed to be sarcastic??Quote:
This is why Americans suck at everything, no work ethic.
If not, nice way to rubber stamp such a absurd statement.
I, like anyone who has been in the industry for a while, have seen so many bad clients that I understand the need to protect your interests. Sorry, there are a lot of irresponsible and childish people who can't make a simple committment, don't want to take any responsibility and want their mistakes to come out of your pocket.
Here are two classic examples
I have two options, you can join for a contract one year at $150 a month or you can joint open ended and cancel with 30 days notice anytime you want for $200 a month. Guy wanted to save money so he signed up for the contract. After 6 months he wanted to quit. I actually gave him an option. He paid $50 per month than those on open eneded, so if he paid me $600 (6 months he came at $50 less than an open eneded) I'd cancel him. That's still cheaper than the $900 left on his contract. He just wanted to cancel, not pay the difference. So he tried to avoid paying off the rest for a few months. Then he wanted to buy a house so he had to clear his credit report, so he had to pay the rest of the contract PLUS the collection charges.
even better
A woman was on an open ended and cancelled. HOwever, she had been kind of lazy and had only come a few times a month, so she tried to charge back on her credit card the 4 months SHE HAD ACTUALLY USED. I use written agreements even on open ended precisely for this sort of reason.
People need to be adults, but so few are.....
Tuition at any university, is only for the semester, 4 months. You could try a semester as a Medical student, if you got into the school, and then quit.
I think contracts (In the context we are talking about) mostly serve to take advantage of new students who don't know what they are getting into. Instructors see it as the greater good, taking money from those who don't want to be there to support those who do. Contracts make good business sense, but taking money from someone who doesn't partake of your services, whether they are available or not, is morally objectionable to me.
It depends on how you use them, If a student only comes sporadically over the course of the year then he should pay for the whole year, not just the months he showed up. A student who doesn't want to be there anymore shouldn't have to pay, and the "Man up" argument isn't a very good one. :rolleyes:
Personally I've never had a problem with a contract. As an idealist I may be against them but on a practical level, you got to do what you got to do. Right now I'm on a 3 Three 3 year contract! :eek:
I use a quarterly contract scheme with 30 days cancellation notice
If you charge at the beginning of each month, your interests are protected if the person decides to leave.
If you charge at the beginning of each month, nothing is coming out of your pocket. In fact, you are making out on the deal if the person leaves before the month is up. And once again, not everyone who drops out is childish. Martial arts are not for everybody and different people prefer different styles and schools.
Just because martial arts, or a certain style or school, isn't for someone doesn't mean that person isn't an adult.
I run into a couple of interesting things;
1. gift card. you may give your friends the gift card for some MA lessons.
2. time sheet/attendance sheet. when you enroll a MA class, you may finish the classtime any way you want, meaning, no matter what reasons, you may not make it. you may come to class at later time if it is available, again. you paid for the class time/slots, you may finish the time slots any way you want in 5 years or more. talking about a commitment delayed and honored.
3. unused classtime transferrable. if you really dun want to do it period, you may give the time slot to a friend who will attend.
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would not be a dream?! too good to be true.
:D :eek:
im a fan of the introductory contract. one trial/viewing
sign contract for 1-3 months. if you like it, then go for the year+ contract.
simple
Contracts are fair. The risk an individual takes to open a school requires some mitigation in order to be able to manage the cashflow that allows for a good student experience.
It's good to live up to your obligations. I have no problem signing on the dotted line if i am committed to something.
I think there is a problem with perceived value. People realize the value of college education...ie more earning potential. But the value of martial arts training is more ephemeral...its not as highly valued. Plus you have the charlatans out there that lower the perceived value even more. So you're always going to have people that are trying to chince there MA teachers. Not saying its right...
FP
as I sit here on the 30th sweating the rent check tomorrow because 30% of my student base hasn't paid yet....contracts are going to be a reality at my school before too long.
martial arts is all about commitment, if as student can't commit to being cognizant enough to write a check every month...then a contract is necessary.
I have trouble wrapping my brain around why people think it's perfectly ok to rip off MA instructors. You always hear,"I didn't come in for two weeks,month,etc. do I still have to pay?" or."We're going on vacation for two weeks, etc"
Yet, you wouldn't DREAM of saying,
"I didn't drive this week, so I won't be making a full car payment"
"We're going on vacation, so we won't pay the mortgage"
"I didn't eat the peas and carrots, so could you take that off the bill?"
"I know I ordered the fillet, but after I ate some of it, I decided to go for pizza. Can I have my money back?"
Perhaps I can tell my landlord, or the utilities company the same thing.
I can see why some instructors need to, but it really depends on how much morality the instructor must give up in order to make enough money, and what morals they are able to set aside to do so.
Why is it the instructor's morality the issue, and not the morality of the student?
I can understand if the instructor is teaching McKwoon crapola, but if he is teaching a good class, good system,good curriculum, etc, then his morality is not in question.
I think you are talking about something else. Like if the student doesn't want to pay because he didn't attend classes. Is that what you are saying? If so, that problem is solved by collecting payment at the beginning of the month. If he doesn't show up for classes that month, you still get paid.
i think you can break it down 2 ways.
money grubbers and martial arts instructors.
some people are just plain money grubbers. there always have been and always will be people willing to exploit just about anything to make a buck.
these are the guys you have to beware of.
then there are martial arts instructors. depending on several factors the instructor will have to make decisions. one of these decisions will be how to operate thier intruction. sometimes it will be a business, sometimes it will just be teaching. and sometimes you have the inbetween (which often times will be forced to go buisiness as they get more notice/students, as well as circumstances changing, or cut back to keep that small quaint home style instruction going)
for the instructor gearing towards the business aspect, a contract is an inevitability. put it off as long as you want. if you want to run a business and have clients who are expected to uphold a portion of a bargain, you need that shiznat in writing or you WILL get screwed.
business is business after all, and the current times will demand you run your business after a certain fassion if you want to be up to par with the times.
I think there should always be an option for month-to-month, albeit at a higher price- they don't know if you'll be back next month, and if you're not it will help cover expenses until you come back, or someone else joins. If you're willing to sign up for a contract, you should be given a lower price- they know you're putting in the time and effort, and aren't going to flake. Plus, if you've been there a while and you know your instructor pretty well, they might "freeze" your contract if you have to go out of town for a while, or are injured, and simply resume it when you get back.
The fact is, most Martial Arts instructors aren't out there to take your money, rubbing their hands with glee and laughing at your gullibility- there are much more profitable and less risky ways of doing that. And the ones that ARE money-hungry belt factory chain schools usually start out with a sincere desire to teach, which is likely how they got their classes so big to begin with. (Villari's, Tiger Schulmann, etc...)
What I hate is when you walk into an MA school, you listen to their pitch, their class looks fun and everything's going good. Then you ask how much instruction is, and they beat around the bush all day and keep trying to pitch you. Even if their intentions are good (unlikely, but I'm giving the benefit of the doubt since I've never run a school) it's annoying and shady.
How will you get screwed if you charge on a monthly basis and collect payment at the beginning of each month?
because they bail out in june and july, and show up in November, or dissapear during Chinese New Year and saunter back in in March.
I don't charge tuition. I have a yearly membership,which is paid off on a monthly basis. You come, great. You don't come-doesn't matter, you bought a year membership. Period.
-oh, btw, when I say it doesn't matter, I am not talking about an indifference to my students. I am strictly speaking of finances.
you wont.
this is how the class is that i currently attend. i like it very much.
but try doing that method with 20-30 adults AND 20-30 kids. it can be tough to keep your turnover rate of students to be level and not fluctuate like mad. granted that you COULD do that, if your trying to run a business and put bread on the table with it, it can be taxing. its much easier to make a contract and say "dont join if you dont like it" this way, you KNOW the people training at your facility are good for so much money.
it sucks having to turn people into walking numbers but thats the game of a financially lucrative business that rely's on long term client relationships.
a lot of contracts will keep the students there, or the cash coming. thats the ups and downs dealing with a business of any nature.
i would like to take this time to point out the fact im glad im just a student and not running a school. oi, talk about a head ache :p
Having memberships, it sounds like your kwoon is more of a club then what is generally thought of as a school. I think those are two different ballgames. And I know the kind of students you are talking about. I think the fact that they come back shows that they want to train. I'd guess that the off-time time is because of career, school, or other obligations. I think this is a fact of modern life that martial artists have to deal with.
yea, but in my case I have a number of people who don't get that when it's the '1st' of the month, it's time to pay for the classes they come to or bring their kids too.
I've got a ***** of a situation with a parent...he's been 5-10 days late with tuition for over 6 months now...i feel like I've got to tell him that Johnny can't come to class till he gets the tuition, and late fees, caught up. I hate it for the kid but I've done everything but beat this guy in the head with a stick. the last two months, he's not returned calls or anything.
Set 'em up on an automatic withdraw, and you shouldn't have to worry about collecting again. :cool:
but, you don't know. your hypothisizing when you aren't running a school...unless you are and I've missed it along the way.
when a student bails I pretty much know the reason...and generally, I try to give them much more face than I get in return.
if they bail because they don't like what I'm doing or how I'm teaching, I try to follow up to see if I can help them find a place that fits them...but those are rare That's not a comment on my ability, just that, at least IME, people tend to bail because:
#1 really learning a martial skill is harder than the fantasy.
#2 Ego. I've seen this manifest itself in many, many ways. Lately I've been dealing with people who are finding themselves threatened by newer students with more base attributes who catch on quicker. I hate trying to play 'guan psychoanalyst' when all I want to say is 'suck it up, train as hard as you can and be happy for your successes and don't judge yourself by anyone else's accomplishments'
This is a very interesting discussion. I've never heard such a level of entitlement expressed by math instructors, English instructors, etc.
I can just imagine a Physics professor berating me after I decided to drop his class: Guess he wasn't man enough for thermodynamics. LOL.