Bone against bone

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09-09-2007, 09:25 AM
Fu-Pow

Bone against bone

I was thinking the other day about techniques that distribute force perpendicular to the bones. For example, Choy Lay Fut's Sau Chui or the Muy Thai round kick. I have seen with my own 2 eyes people break their arms or legs using these techniques.

Techniques that channel the force through the length of the bone seem to be safer because that is direction that bones are used to dealing with force. For example, a straight punch or thrust kick.

In the long term this seems to be a better long term strategy.

Thoughts?
09-09-2007, 09:37 AM
golden arhat

u can make bones used to reciveing perpendicular force by using stuff like that often

a high amount of clacium is recomended aswell lol i have never broken a bone soing stuff liek that

i do drink alot of milk tho hmmm

anyway oush kicks have their place aswell

i find i can do alot more damage with the former tho
09-09-2007, 09:42 AM
lkfmdc

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fu-Pow

I was thinking the other day

there's a first time for everything :rolleyes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fu-Pow

For example, Choy Lay Fut's Sau Chui or the Muy Thai round kick. I have seen with my own 2 eyes people break their arms or legs using these techniques.

I saw a toddler fall down a flight of stairs and bust open his head, time to get rid of all stairs! :rolleyes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fu-Pow

In the long term this seems to be a better long term strategy.

you giving out fighting strategy :rolleyes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fu-Pow

Thoughts?

I think you should STFU and study something real before you go on giving advice to people....

maybe you should just ignore the entire forum
09-09-2007, 09:43 AM
RonH

The smaller the individual bone, the greater likelihood that they will break.

You can develop 'padding' by building muscles and tightening the connective tissue, but that padding will eventually wear away by repeated blows and/or old age. You can try making the bones themselves stronger, such as breaking them and letting them heal, so there is more bone material.

The reason a lot of people have foot probelms from walking all day is because they put their weight on the front end of their feet. That end is not designed to support the whole weight of the body for long periods of time. The heel is. You find that when you shift your weight to your heels more often, the toe end of your feet won't hurt as much. This is also why, when you break bricks, the force goes through the butt of the palm, not the fingertips.

Sweeping the right foot/leg from the right to the left decreases the amount of material behind the impact site of the kicking leg. The design of tanks for the battlefield are not straight up and down, but angled. While using the same amount of material, they can put more of the substance behind the direction they are expecting an attack to come from without wasting more material. That's why the front panel of tanks and tank like vehicles that are wheeled over the last 50 years or so are low in the front, with the other end of the front/top panel higher in the back. The same goes for the front/bottom panel that's higher in the front and lower in the back. There are some variations for tank and tank like vehicles, but a large part of their design has been this way.

The same holds true for long term kicking.

Edit: To illustrate my point, the top image versus the bottom one.

http://img510.imageshack.us/my.php?i...5277387jf1.png

Not drawn to scale.
09-09-2007, 10:17 AM
lkfmdc

RonH taling to Fu Pow, this thread needs to be re-titled "bonehead against bonehead" :rolleyes:
09-09-2007, 10:20 AM
IronWeasel

Quote:

Originally Posted by lkfmdc

RonH taling to Fu Pow, this thread needs to be re-titled "bonehead against bonehead" :rolleyes:

Lol!

Alright...I'm awake NOW!
09-09-2007, 11:34 AM
Xiao3 Meng4

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fu-Pow

Techniques that channel the force through the length of the bone seem to be safer because that is direction that bones are used to dealing with force. For example, a straight punch or thrust kick.

In the long term this seems to be a better long term strategy.

Thoughts?

I've had fun with this idea in relation to "soft" styles, Crane styles, and Wing Chun. "Soft" styles often claim applicability into old age, implying reduced bone structure. Consider as well that bird bones are hollow, fragile, and therefore susceptible to perpendicular impacts. The popular story about Wing Chun being made for a woman also implies a fineness and frailty of the bones.

IMO, perpendicular forces in relation to our own long bones are most effectively applied in the form of Fulcrums - setups, takedowns, trips, throws, locks, etc.

Christian
09-09-2007, 12:51 PM
TenTigers

Duncan Leung/Alan Lee's Wing Chun is not the same animal you describe. Their tan-sao, and gaun-sao will break bone.
Hung-Ga uses the same method, and we have had "mishaps" in class, where one student broke a fellow student's radius with a cutting block. It was unfortunate,but that is what it was designed for.
09-09-2007, 01:06 PM
Xiao3 Meng4

Quote:

Originally Posted by TenTigers

Duncan Leung/Alan Lee's Wing Chun is not the same animal you describe. Their tan-sao, and gaun-sao will break bone.
Hung-Ga uses the same method, and we have had "mishaps" in class, where one student broke a fellow student's radius with a cutting block. It was unfortunate,but that is what it was designed for.

Ah yes, Ulnas vs. Radii. There's definitely a structural advantage that can be used effectively, provided all of the conditions are met. Perpendicular bone strikes are possible, wild, powerful, and common, though not necessarily optimal.

Flashback:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3j-Z7pnffI :eek:

Christian
09-10-2007, 05:08 AM
Ben Gash

I always use that clip as an illustration of how not to kick. It's not that shin kicking is bad as such, but if you hit with the weakest part of your unsupported shin against the strongest part of his well planted shin, bad things are going to happen.
09-10-2007, 05:37 AM
David Jamieson

by that logic an elbow strike will be bad for the radius or ulna.
but we know that an elbow strike exerts a lot of force and doesn't
cause the arm to break.

when any of the strikes mentioned are delivered with the correct structure (acquired through training) then the danger of breaking something is only there when the person is not doing the strike with proper structure.

imo anyway.
09-10-2007, 05:58 AM
sanjuro_ronin

Shin breaks happen in MT when the striking shin is NOT prependicular (90) to the blocking shin bone.
The shin round kick MUST come in on a 90 or angled down, angles up exposes the weak "flat" part of the shin and you want to make contact with the "sharp edge" of the shin.
09-10-2007, 07:11 AM
Ben Gash

Indeed, hence the first line of my post, and why the most common thing to hear me saying during kicking training is "get your hips over!!!"
09-10-2007, 10:05 AM
Shaolindynasty

Quote:

Techniques that channel the force through the length of the bone seem to be safer because that is direction that bones are used to dealing with force. For example, a straight punch or thrust kick.

I would be willing to bet that far more people have broken their hand with a straight punch than with a sau choi or round kick collectively.
09-10-2007, 11:29 AM
Xiao3 Meng4

I guess I'm simply partial to soft meeting hard and hard meeting soft. ;)