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Originally Posted by
friedrice
It's been a while since I read these accounts. But good stuff that you're adding. I recall that Bruce Lee was trying to make a name for himself by issuing challenges. Flyers sounds like a simple thing to do.
I have actually heard your claim before I just haven't heard of a source. I read Showdown in Oakland which had a lot of interesting insights on the fight including Bruce Lee's verbal challenge at a theater which found its way to Wong Jack Man.
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I think I agree with you that it probably went, somewhat, Bruce Lee's way. But I also believe that Wong came there thinking that it was a sporty match and Lee started immediately with the anti-rape eye pokes and nut strikes to put the guy down. Yea, Bruce probably beat him....but who was Wong at that time anyway, nobody really. Now not to take away from his accomplishments later on in life as a SIFU with his own lineage up to today, so I'm not trying to insult him.
Based on what I read in Showdown in Oakland it does seem that Wong Jack Man thought they were going to spar while Bruce Lee was trying to seriously hurt him. I think this scenario is entirely plausible. In the world of fighting Wong Jack Man was nobody but as a Martial Artist he was a young master so I think Bruce Lee deserves a little credit. This wasn't an untrained opponent he was facing.
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There was an account by a Chinese journalist who said he saw Wong the next day, working his normal job as a waiter at the cafe and he wasn't wrecked or anything from the fight. Just a slight abrasion near his eyes from what seems to be a woman or Bruce Lee's scratching. Of course, I added the part about the "woman" scratching :)
This is also mentioned in Showdown in Oakland. The man in question according to Rick Wing who witnessed the scratch was Grandmaster Ming Lum.
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I think that examining Bruce Lee's fight experience, really shows that he wasn't very good. There's a video of him hitting a punching bag, and wasn't very impressive.
I don't make too much out of the punching bag footage. I don't think we can know Bruce Lee's true level without seeing him fight. What we can see is that he was in great athletic condition, trained hard and had a good philosophy on Martial Arts.
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As I recall, this was some Amateur event at the High School level, so about 18 and under. To begin with, I don't think that Hong Kong was ever the scene for Boxing, ever. So whoever Gary Elms was, that he beat Chinese kids at Boxing in Hong Kong, I doubt it was that big of an accomplishment. Whatever Boxing training that Bruce Lee had at that time, it couldn't have been very good since his main MA was Wing Chun and he was pretty distraught by its effectiveness vs. Wong that he kind of renounced WC and started training Western Boxing, Wrestling, etc.
Certainly this fight didn't mean much in the world of Boxing but it is significant that Bruce Lee beat a local Boxing champion. It means he had some talent.
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Originally Posted by
friedrice
Yea, there was Bartisu, developed in the late 1900's, combining different styles of MA.
Then there was Mitsuyo Maeda, who was an international fighter who supposed to have had 2000+ fights, many were No Holds Barred. Then he taught the Gracies, who in their own right, challenged and fought NHB/Vale Tudo for nearly 100 years in Brazil.
Bruce Lee certainly was influential in all forms of MA with lots of myths and legends added...inspiring many masters and champions, no doubt.
When I said that without Bruce Lee there might not be MMA I was referring to how he had popularized Martial Arts. Maybe MMA would still exist but Martial Arts would probably not be as popular as it is today.
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Originally Posted by
Krottyman
As for your comments on Bruce Lee thinking his WC was ineffective:
I'm not a huge fan of Wing Chun either but I doubt he crosstrained because he felt that his art didn't work. As far as I recall, his JKD cirriculum (ironic, as he hated the idea of a defined "style") still had some Wing Chun concepts in them. So when people say that frankly I don't think that holds water. Plus, there are photos of him doing Chi Sao with people he taught, why would he teach anything related to WC if he thought it was crap? That goes against his entire life philosophy.
Based on his interview in Black Belt Magazine it seems that Bruce Lee thought Wing Chun was impractical after the Wong Jack Man fight and decided to change his approach to fighting. I think it's more proper to say that he augmented his fighting style rather than outright disavowing Wing Chun because as you said he still practiced some Wing Chun concepts.