Rare Hung Gar Weapons? (Wing Lam students may know these?)

I posted this on the main board as well...

This question is for anyone who’s practised Hung Gar, or any students of Wing Lam… I was browsing through his on-line catalogue, specifically the following URL - http://www.wle.com/smarthtml/ccraftedweapons.html and I found these weapons called “Combat Double Tiger-Head Steel Shields”…

These look a lot like a type of paired weapons – Ying Jee Pai, or ‘Willow Boards’ -in the style of southern shao-lin tiger I practice. Does anyone know how to use these things? Have any Hung-Gar practitioners even heard of this weapon?

Respects,
TF

Hi Tricky Fist,

I study under Wing Lam and although I have not learned this set, after probing my si hing I have some info on it:

The tiger head shields are a unique variation of a universal weapon. While most shields are paired with a sword, two of these shields are used together and both shields are edged. This makes the tiger head shields both a weapon of defense and offense.

FUNDAMENTALS
When held on the arm, the top of the shield should be between your shoulder and elbow. The points should be at knee level. On the inside, there is a fixed handle for the hand, and a supporting ring on a joint that comes to the elbow.

Although these tiger head shields are made of solid steel, their are many different variations in composition. Chinese shields are often made of rattan, wood, leather or metal. These steel shields are heavy for training, weighing 25 pounds each. Today, tiger head shields are more commonly constructed of solid hardwood, sometimes covered with a sheet of metal or reinforced with metal fittings. These shields usually weigh around 10 pounds each and are more practical for actual combat.
The common shield is defensive in nature. Even shields that had spikes or blades were used with some other offensive weapon. Since these shields are used in pairs, one of these shields serves as the defensive shield while the other shield takes the offense. The fist side of the shield with the points was edged inside the triangular cut end. Although each shield is edged and pointed, the weight of these shields can inflict considerable damage without the edge.
Frequently, shields were painted with the characters for the school of the shield bearer, or with the faces of demons to intimidate the enemy.

Sifu teaches two lines of Hung Gar. The Canton style and the Hay Say Fu style. I did not learn any HSF sets until after about 3 to 4 yrs of training at Lam Kwoon first.

To many outsiders a lot of HSF sets look basic. There in lies the paradox. On one hand basic techniques work best. On the other hand it is the very detailed way that HSF generates energy that makes the movements so powerful. IMHO, Hay Say Fu is overall far more deep in detail then the Canton style. After learning it, it changed the way I think about manipulating energy and thus changed the way I do my Canton style.

As a side note, if you have learned Tin Sin or at least the Dragon part of Ng Ying and the Small Golden Bell system of Bak Sil Lum. (specifically the offensive Martial aspects of it as opposed to the Defensive iron body techniques) Then you would kind of understand.

This may be why some people think Sifu Lams Hung Gar is different from his peers. He has trained with three separate lines of Hung Gar and has a very unique perspective on it.
Also, like most southern systems HSF's killing range is typically short to medium.

Hope this helps,

Onassis P. aka “O”

Hi again,

In my diferentiantion of the two styles i forgot to mention that the shields belong to the Ha Say Fu style.
(Sorry i was typing quickly whilst my baby was asleep, haha)

Truely they are rare indeed.

"O"

Wow.

Thanks very much for all the information! Honestly, I didn’t expect that anyone would know, much less respond.

It’s unnerving how similar your description of the tiger shields are to the ‘Ying Jee Pai’ in my style… (uhm, I’m spelling that phonetically by the way). My Sifu is a bit unsure of the translation, but he said that the closest he could get in English was ‘Willow Boards”. The Ying Jee Pai are used in pairs, and look quite similar to your style’s Tiger Shields… they’re kind of our style’s signature weapon. The dimensions are about the same – perhaps a bit smaller – but the ‘Pai look almost like the tail-feathers of a bird. The front of the shield (where your fist would be) extends into a point (like that of an arrow) while the back extends into two points. I’ve seen the form – from one of my Sifu’s brothers – and it’s *very* long and contains a lot of uppercuts and hook punches. I get to start learning a paired form next week, Ying Jee Pai versus the Spear (I’m the spear-man)

Oh, jeez I forgot to mention that I practice southern Shao-lin tiger. Now I’m kind of curious now if any other tiger stylists have this weapon…. I’m completely ignorant when it comes to Hung Gar, much less Hay Su Fu Hung Gar, so I wouldn’t really be able to compare it to what I’ve been learning! It all sounds great though, (oh, and we’re short to medium range as well).

Thanks again!

TF


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Art is limitation; the essence of any picture is the frame - G.K Chesterson

The word "pai", in this sense, can mean board (plank) or shield.

Hi Tricky-fist,

Right on TF, that's interesting! Im very curious to see what they'd look like. If you ever have a site i could get a look at 'em it would be much appeciated.

Just wondering what the wieght might be of each shield? Also the feather concept is cool, just wondering if they were comprised of metal and overlaping ontop of the shield (similar to scale mail armor)?
Or 'OIC', it's the whole shield that is the shape of one individual feather? I think i picture it now.

Ok man, back at cha and thx for sharing too.

"O"

Wing Lam will teach any weapon that he can learn on the spot or make up. He will make any video to sell that too. He has made up staff forms that don't appear traditional . His hay say fut whatever is not traditional. His staff forms have many " green dragon hides in a cave and waving the flag to kill 1000 soldiers" moves. He picked up his ****ty wing chun from GOD KNOWS WHO and " NOW" teaches it! I heard a wing lam student learned wing chun somewhere else and came back to chi sao with wing lam and pinned him up against the wall.

Onassis here has learned this watered down wing chun as well. I observed him IN PERSON doig " CHUM KIL." He was doing the form at a fast speed like it was a shaolin form. Has no idea what the movements are for.

This doesn't deserve a response but,

# 1 your a Coward = "WORD"

# 2 Your a Liar, I don't do Chum Kil or practice any Wing Chun forms.

What i do practice is Ha Say Fu: Panther and Tiger which use Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma stance and might be mistaken for Wing Chun. But the energies, body alignment and linking of the tendons are completely different.

If you saw me doing anything remotely resembling Wing Chun, You actually saw me doing HSF.

Your punny inexperienced brain could not possibly understand what it was looking at.

You obviously have a personal vendetta VS my SIFU because your attacks on him are far beyond even the avid Troller. (Which as we all know YOU ARE to the highest degree)

You obviously feel that you were wronged in some way and i feel sorry for you. Your hate is consuming you VADER. haha the DarkSide, you know what happens to him.

You stealth into my school yet don't reveal yourself. Again your a total coward.

To Tricky Fist,
I apologize by answering that Troll. It has not furthered our mutual exchange of kung fu info.

"O"

Morning Subitai!
Just to answer some of your questions…

Sorry man, our school doesn’t have a site up! I wish I could show you a picture of them. I’ll probably have the spear vs. ying jee pai form ready for a run by Chinese New Year (it isn’t all that long). I can probably post some digital pictures from whatever we happen to do in terms of a celebration. I’m not sure how heavy they are, and traditionally – as far as I know – they’re constructed entirely of wood. There’s a handle on one end for the hand, and a strap which goes around your upper forearm at the other end. My Sifu made the ones we have – seeing as we can’t buy them – and he made them for his brother’s arm length and build. They should be long enough to extend past an open hand and your elbow. I’ll post the pictures later this year if you can wait! (No worries on that other matter by the way)

(oh, and Paul, thanks for the translation)

Respects,
TF


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Art is limitation; the essence of any picture is the frame - G.K Chesterson