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I have been doing a type of chi gong for over a year called Falun Gong. It has really helped me out a lot in my life, and if anyone is interested I would recommend going to www.falundafa.org
On their website there are books and videos that can be downloaded for free. It combines buddhist and toaist principals with chi gong. I highly recommend it!
I've looked into FG, and honestly don't know enough about qigong, Buddhism and Taoism to say if ~70% of it is true or false. About ~20% I've heard similar stuff before and can agree with. Another 10% I'm very skeptical about, although I couldn't prove it's wrong.
If you know much about it, perhaps I could bounce my skepticisms off you...
I see where your coming from. When I first started, I was extremely skeptical. After doing it myself and then talking to other people, I have completely changed my attitude. If I can help with any questions, please feel free to email me m854agic@aol.com
Falun gong is a cult, plain and simple.
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The way of the samurai is in desperateness. Ten men or more cannot kill such a man. Common sense will not accomplish great things. Simply become insane and desperate. - Hagakure
sorry guys...
i have looked into this.
the propaganda spread by the chinese
government is not without some truth.
http://www.rickross.com/groups/falun.html
while i am CERTAINLY not a supporter of
chinese communism, i am not in support of
cults.
http://www.rickross.com/reference/fa.../falun193.html
http://www.rickross.com/reference/fa.../falun188.html
http://www.rickross.com/reference/fa.../falun176.html
not that the two are related in any way, but:
i have also seen a mpeg clip of
li hongzhi teaching falun gong against
a background that reminds me much of
the graphics that heavens gate cult used to
use frequently.
be careful. chi cultivation is one thing.
cult affiliation is another.
Hi-
While the falun gong organization may be culty, the chi kung the do is fairly simple and easy to learn.
Overall, the chi kung will not do you any harm but if you go for the "company line" then you are talking about something a bit different.
They do standard chi kung exercises such as Jam Jong (ZhangZhong/ Standing Post), Carry the Moon, Lift the Sky and many other very useful Chi Kung exercises.
They are however a political hot potato and have made many outrageous claims about the powers of Chi Kung in relation to acute illness and indeed it is true that people have refused medical treatment because of membership in the organization and have died from their maladies.
You do not need to be a member of a cult poli/religio group to get benefits from Chi Kung practice which can be found, learned and practiced outside these groups.
peace
Kung Lek
But this is all primarily lots of hearsay/rhetoric/propaganda/mudslinging. That doesn't impress me. I would like to hear actual factual misconduct or deception, or specific proven errors in the teachings. Anyone?
I've only heard mostly personal attacks on Li or his followers, but little specifically about the actual teachings or exercises. Lets hear about those.
I want to say just a couple of things. First of all, I don not think all people should practice falun gong. If you have been doing a type of chi gong, tai chi, or whatever and are happy, then by all means stick with that. I can only speak from my own experience. I practiced falun gong on my own for over a year before ever meeting another falun gong practitioner. I have not had a single experience to hint that this could be a cult in any way. It has had only postive impacts on my life. There are no memberships, no money is exchanged, and you can do it without ever talking to another person who does falun gong. How could a cult exist without membership? As far as the Chinese media is concerened, you have to keep in mind that the Chinese government has a bad habbit of running people over with army tanks if they voice their opinion. The media in China is controlled by the government. The reason why the Chinese government bagain persecuiting falun gong, is because there are too many people who pratice it. Li Hongzhi lectured for two years to about 20,000 people. withen a few years, several million Chinese were practicing this chi gong. The Chinese government is afraid of anything that could motivate that many people for any reason. The only way someone can be unbiased is if they give it a try themselves. If you don't like it, don't do it. Simple as that. In all though, I'm just trying to say that this has helped my out a lot, and I just wanted to give my opinion. People have the right to their own opinion (even if it is totally opposite of mine).
www.falundafa.org
www.clearwisdom.org
right, chi stuff is good
cult stuff is not good.
if you can separate the wheat
from the chaff then go ahead.
go to rick ross website and see
the posts from news agencies from
all over the world.
something about... oh i dunno...
some guy claiming to be the center
of the universe? so he ripped chi gung
exercises from someplace else....
i will look for quotes and news clippings
to set y'all straight.
cuz you sure arent doing it yourselves :P~
ok here we go...
from none other than TIME magazine:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...8833-2,00.html
In an interview with TIME in April, Li spoke about the
joys of levitating and claimed that aliens have been
invading humanity since the beginning of this century.
TIME magazine is hardly in cahoots with
communist chinese officials, but...
hey, sounds like a kook that found something
cool to manipulate people with.
i thought different when it first happened.
like maybe something neat is brewing in the
world... freedom at last for our national chinese
brothers and sisters.
upon closer examination, i feel different.
like dangling a carrot in front of a running
horse.
only in this case, the horse gets to bite every
once in a while, blinded by whats ahead of him
enjoying the taste of the bite.
http://forum.kungfuonline.com/1/Open...1&m=5721985601
There's the conversation we had on this subject in kung fu forum few weeks ago.
http://clearwisdom.net/eng/weekly_category/support.html
International organizations and governments don't support cults.
I ordered their Video and instruction manuel.
They threw in a gallon of gas and a pack of matches for free!!!!!!!! ;) Just kidding of course.
The chi-gung sets are basic and nothing special. The writings of the leader are magical in nature and sound delusional to me. One example is he describes seeing a naked female (vision) while meditating. He explains that this is a visit by a demon attempting to hinder your progress.
This is a very new aspect of meditation to me. I know I have a lot to learn and look forward to the day that naked females visit me. :)
I am joking about that, it would scare the **** out of me to start having hallucinations.
Does anyone know the definition of the word cult? It means;
1. a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.
3. the object of such devotion.
4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
5. Sociol.a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.
6. a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.
so by definition, Christianity is a cult, Buddhism is a cult, Islam is a cult, Hinduism is a cult............Nice eh? It's not till the 6th definition of the word cult that you guys get your meaning when applied to Falun Gong. Does ANYONE HERE have FIRST HAND knowledge of Falun Gong that is unfavorable? Don't knock it till you try it. Let em be, if they are happy......
To the best of my knowledge, Heaven's Gate folks and those in Jonestown are happy as clams.
Those with David Koresh are a little hot under the collar, but when the smoke clears, they are probably happy too.
The Khmer Rouge was a nice organization following their leaders....the fields were nice.
cagey vet - actually, he may be right about the aliens. But, that's another story...
As far as levitating and other paranormal powers - I believe they may be possible but will really believe them when I see them. There was footage this Sunday night on TLC showing Lamas walking thru walls so who knows? So, I don't think this is necesarily proof for or against.
As far as the integrity and validity of the Chinese gov's propaganda, you gotta be kidding me. They blow so much smoke out their *ss you'd think you're stuck in a cab with some practicing Rastafarians. Reminds me of the anti-LSD largely-BS "horror stories" you heard in the 60s. Even the recent self-burnings are highly suspicious of being faked. Like one guy's "burned face" looks suspiciously like the latex masks used in movie-making, where it's thicker and covers up the real hairline, creating a false one that goes straight up all around. Meanwhile, the gov has cruelly tortured countless and killed over a hundred non-resistant followers.
I don't care if this guy's a flake, I think the gov's crackdown on it is horrendous. I think everyone has the right to religious freedom, especially if it's non-violent.
Bottom line is, I want to hear the facts argued here, not baseless mudslinging. I want to hear specific facets of the teachings, exercises or Li Hongzhi debunked, or not. Again, anyone???
Orginex, I agree with you about the outright suppression of thoughts and ideas in China. I am very much a supporter of free speech and all the liberties we enjoy in the good ole US of A.
I thought I was specific when I described the visual hallucinations this guy was reporting. I did sutdy the teaching from the website for a while. I stand by my first post.
qiman - actually, I've heard the same advice to not be distracted by weird hallucinations or visualizations during meditation from various sources, not just FG. That was even supposedly one of Sakyamuni's "tests" for enlightenment per legend. So, I consider that pretty standard advice, if anything...
And BTW, as far as levitation and "superpowers" - a certain HUGE mainstream "respected" religion claims its leader could walk on water, materialize things, change substances, heal and come back to life after death - yet no one uses that as proof that it's BS or a "cult." Can you spell D-O-U-B-L-E S-T-A-N-D-A-R-D ??
[This message was edited by origenx on 02-19-01 at 11:27 AM.]
My thoughts exactly origenx. Until someone has PROOF, then let it alone....
People think if it can't be explained or sounds impossible, then it is. I think science and spirituality will eventually prove eachother right...........
Hi...again.
origenx, you can draw your own conclusions about Li Hongxi and his teachings at his website.
The link is supplied in another post.
Falun Gong/dafa is a "cult of personality" and not a religious cult. They are different.
you speak of outrageous stories of "miracles and faith healings" in reference to the christian faith. The christian faith has many aspects.
Some even recognize Jesus as just a man, but a man with a message of peace.
The miracles can all be explained and have been by various sources.
for instance "water into wine"- it is known that the same amphorae (bottles) were used over and over again sometimes over a period of years.
This led to a residue buildup of crystallized wine in the amphorae. Jesus directs someone to fill it with water and swish it around.
Wine is produced much in the same way as instant coffee.
The zealots proclaim this a miracle. Jesus never claimed a miracle had occured.
The fishes and loaves story has an equally intersting twist.
Everybody gathers (about 5000). 5000 people gathering with no food at all? didn't happen.
the demonstartion by Jesus and his followers was a lesson in giving.
IE: Give away everything you have and it will be returned in two fold.
If I hand over all my fish to the next guy, somebody down the line is gonna give me theirs and so on until all the food that was present at the sermon on the mount was distributed and there was some leftover in the end. The only miracle there was that people gave up their own possessions and learned that they really gave up nothing but instead made gains in more areas than food.
Lazarus was a result of knowledge. He may not have even been dead at all. Jesus was likely educated in some medicinal practices and either brought lazarus out of a coma, or any number of other techniques associated with medicinal practices at the time (which were no less or no more primitive than herbalism and manipulative therapy or Chi manipulation or acupressure.puncture of today).
Li Hongxi in his writings sets himself apart from the rest of humanity and all his contemporaries. He claims that virtually all of the masters of Chi Kung don't really understand Chi Kung and that only if you follow his way will you see what "real" chi kung and it's benefits are.
Li Hongxi is the leader of a cult of personality that does little more than borrow from chi kung arts that have existed for many years before he was a gleem in his dads eye.
Li hongxi has told people to not go for treatment of acute symptoms and those people have died because of their faith in Li.
Li hongxi capatalizes on those who are too weak to make their own destiny manifest.
He is clever and recognizes most readily human weakness.
Yes the PRC is likely going overboard in their protestations about Li and his group, and they do have a clear track record of obfuscation and deception and accordingly are not trusted by the western public.
But what of western propaganda? What of the still prominent "communist scare" in the western world.
Li hongxi is no different than the rest of us, he is a human who has all the problems and joys of being human.
to his followers he is a demi urge and sage of sorts.
Li is not the only one who practices these deceptions.
The Chinese government does not crack down anymore on people doing tajiquan in the park or Chi Kung for that matter. It is the communist party line to not allow groups that are considered dissident to flourish.
Li hongxi actively recruits government people in all levels where possible.
He is seeking internal political power and indeed he has a political agenda.
I do not agree with the tenets and precepts of communism at all in any way. it is a pile of marxist utopian garbage in my not so humble opinion.
Nor do I agree with anything about falun gong practices with the singular exception that Chi Kung practice is good for you and it is good for anybody of any age.
Be careful, that's all.
peace
Kung Lek
[This message was edited by Kung Lek on 08-19-01 at 11:58 AM.]
Li also states that Monks or Nuns that cultivate in a specific way. When dead and creamated will leave a mass of material from a different dimension. It cannot be identifed by modern science. Sounds delusional to me.
Actually, I have read in several books of high level masters of chiqong/taoism, when cremated, leaving a number of diamond-like residues. I think Magus of Java was one of these books. Bones of the Master may have been another.
Yes, the claims of interdimensional materials and residues that are unidentifiable by science...
I have "heard" these claims too.
I don't think anyone actually ever had "science" take a look at these claims and I think that no-one ever will. It will immediately de-mystify everything.
It is these claims that drift from the truth of Chi Kung practice that tick me off.
Chi kung is a natural and very real thing that affects and effects each practitioner in a positive way.
It does not need to be mystified, it does not need to be wrapped in mystery.Accept it or don't but don't try and make a silk purse from a sows ear.
many do this with all sorts of arts.
Kung Fu is overmystified as are many martial arts.
It's just knowledge to be gained and applied, it is not some big-quasi religious secret.
corruption of intent, spirit and thought is what leads to these behaviours in so called "masters".
I have always been of the opinion that the more trappings and outward expressions you surround yourself with, the less true skill you have.
This I have found to be a general truism.
peace
Kung Lek
qiman - I don't know about "other-dimensional," but it is stnadard Buddhist belief that enlightened masters, when cremated, will leave "suli" - small whitish pebbles. Like, supposedly, when Sakyamuni was cremated, he left 84,000 suli and India gave china 19 of them. Of those 19, supposedly the only real one located today is in Famen Temple in Xian. I saw it, as well as a finger bone also purported to be from Buddha. Anyways, the "suli" looks like a tiny whitish pebble about the size of half a grain of rice.
Kung Lek - Intersting spin on Jesus' "miracles." I never heard those before - where'd you read that?
Ok points about Li Hongzhi, but I still haven't heard anything really convincing that puts a nail in his coffin. I wanna hear that he's embezzling all this money to buy a fleet of Benz's, or that he lied about his past, or specific points in his teaching that are wrong. I still haven't heard anything solid as such... ?
Maybe delusions are to strong of a word, how about myth. I have never heard these stories before. Most of the books I have are on martial Qigong and only touch on the mystical. I like the fact that many of us have disagreed and no one has started name calling. Must be all that internal work! I may not can fly but it sure makes me calmer.
Origenx, I have not heard of the suli legend. Is it written about in the Dhammapada? If so were?
I am not challenging you, just want to read about it. :)
Coffin nails....not bloody likely.
The BEST con men apply just enough truth and appear honest enough to be worthy of the benefit of the doubt.
From an old Thief of Bagdad movie : "Trust in Allah,.....but tie up your camel"
From P.T.Barnum paraphrased, When you are offered something for nothing, you usually get nothing for something....
falun gong is good
plain and simple
Qiman - I didn't read about "suli's." I don't even know if they're in Buddhist texts. I just learned about them when touring various temples in China. If you talk to someone who's travelled somewhat in China or lived there, they may have heard about it. Ask around...and let me know what you hear?
My teacher said that when his Buddhist teacher (a monk) died and was cremated, he left pearl like substances that came from his spine. These indicated that the internal fire from many years of meditation had hardened certain areas along the spine and were indicative of his teachers level of spiritual attainment.
"By the time one reaches the state of Unlocking Gong (kaigong) and is enlightened, this dan will be a bomb that explodes and opens up all supernormal abilities, all locks in the body, and hundreds of energy passes. "Bang," everything will be shaken open. This is what the dan is used for. After a monk is cremated at death, sarira remain. Some people claim that those are bones and teeth. How come everyday people do not have sarira? Those are just the exploded dan, and their energy has been released. They contain in themselves a lot of substances from other dimensions. After all, they are also something of material existence, but of little use. People now take them to be something very precious. They contain energy, and are lustrous, as well as very hard. That is what they are."
ddh, magicfist - yeah, pearly "pebbles" being left after cremation of enlightened masters is a fairly standard Buddhist phenomenom that is not a new Falun Gong thing.
Sorry if I gave the impression that it was strictly a falun gong thing. It was just a description of a phenomenon that has happened to people in the past. By the way, what does ddh mean?
"Orginex, I agree with you about the outright suppression of thoughts and ideas in China. I am very much a supporter of free speech and all the liberties we enjoy in the good ole US of A."
To start off with, I don't want anyone to get the idea that I'm supporting the Chinese government (or any government for that matter). You do have to remember, however, that much of the information you're getting from the corporate media in the good ole US of A is propaganda, just as it is here in Australia, or anywhere else you care to mention. It strikes me as funny that so many of the same people who knock others for not being more critical of Chinese reports are so completely uncritical of their own media. If you've ever spoken to journalists who work for large media corporations, you'll know that they're the first to admit to "editorial" pressure to keep in synch with what amounts to the party line.
My personal opinion is that Western governments spend most of their time killing citizens of other countries, while dictatorships tend to work on a domestic basis as well. Then again, that's my personal opinion. I think you have to take absolutely everything you hear or read with a grain of salt. Look at where it's coming from, look at why they want you to believe it...Criticism begins at home. For any of you who are interested, Noam Chomsky has written a number of excellent books about how the government and media in the US and other Western countries lie to their citizens. The good thing is, he usually provides independently verifiable evidence, too. ;)
Anyway...
anarcho - but that's sorta my point. Both gov's are sorta using FG as a political tool - it's not so much about FG itself. The Chinese gov could really care less what FG is about - they just see it as a threat for instability and insurrection. Just lots of frightened weak old men. The Chinese Communist gov wants to make an example out of FG to suppress other spiritual movements (see Tibet). I think the US is thus fairly concerned about the Chinese persecution aginst FG, but of course it also conveniently fits into their own anti-Communist agenda as well. Which I would have to agree with b/c Communism is a proven failure. Any system built upon human's ideal nature is bound to fail. You have to build it assuming the "worst" in human nature (selfishness, greed, etc.), but then channel those "negative" tendencies in a positive manner. (I.e. - get REAL folks!)
Bottom line is, everyone should just stick to the facts and evaluate FG on its own merits, instead of kicking it around like a political football. All I hear is lots of hearsay and propaganda still. But I guess that's the point - to cloud the issue by overloading people with misinformation and disinformation until they just get hopelessly confused.
[This message was edited by origenx on 03-06-01 at 10:50 AM.]
First off, good post on the idea to be doubtful of all media. The first thing I always ask is why is this person telling me this and where are they coming from...regardless of if the story is from China or from the west.
As for why China chose to crack down on Falun Gong...really simple, the organization began to attract thousands of followers, then it began to target low level party members and local officials for enticing into the Falun Gong group.
The thousands of followers is scary enough for the PRC government to take notice. Especially since it got its start in the recent history since Tienanmen Square...but now add the idea of targetting people for inclusion or conversion into the group....and you have a major problem in the eyes of a controlling regime like that of the PRC....
If I am the government, abuse of power is my right...if you do it, you are being insurgent ...but it is no different in other countries....
However, the real story is in the Falun Gong book...I actually bought it and have read parts of it just so I would know what the guy was saying. He is certifiable....and I mean a space cadet.
Cheers, OrigenX, I see your point. Just one aside, though, I don't think Marxism is based on considering humans to be naturally good, more on considering them to be changeable depending on their environment. And I definitely agree with you, state run communism couldn't work...You can't force people to do anything without causing more problems than you're solving. I also don't think that state run democracy works, but there you go. :)
Anyway, this is a thread for another board, so I'll shut up now.
:)
hello there everyone,
i was reading a book on eastern philosophy the other day and on the part about chi gung it mentioned falun gong now i have never ever heard of this and would like someone to enlighten me if possible in what ways does it differ from chi gung . i ask this because the book did not give a clear definition
any opinions would be greatly appreciated
(especially prana because he realy seems to know what hes on about)
Regards dave
anyone?
I could, but....
Falon gong is really messed up!! You want better health? Practice a martial art.
Try Hsing-I, Tai Chi, and Bagua.