Bruce Lee vs. Jose Aldo

Who wins?

Rules for the fight:

1. Prime vs. Prime (Bruce Lee is resurrected or brought back through time travel and he's in the best shape of his life as is Aldo).

2. UFC rules (not a street fight they are competing under unified rules of Mixed Martial Arts).

3. No Prep for either fighter (Bruce Lee doesn't get time to train MMA he comes in to the fight with the skills he developed in his life time. Fight starts instantaneously and Bruce Lee knows all of the rules).

4. No injuries (Bruce Lee's back is fine. Aldo isn't suffering from his current rib injury or any other injuries).

5. No Cheating (Winner of the fight wins fair and square).

6. Same weight (This is for the UFC Featherweight championship and Bruce Lee weighs 145 pounds).

I want serious answers. Who do you think would win and why? How would the fight transpire? This thread was inspired by Youtube discussions where people are arguing about who would win and how Bruce Lee would do in MMA in general.

Here's a video of the fight from the UFC videogame for your viewing pleasure:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXf7nsVLqiI

OK, I'll start.

Jose Aldo.

Aldo has far more experience in competitive fighting in general, and MMA in particular, and against higher-level and better-conditioned opponents than Bruce Lee faced during his life. Aldo is also every bit as quick, probably more so, in terms of all-around body speed and reaction time. I also think that Jose Aldo has greater 'killer instinct' than BL, and he has unleashed his aggression many times, to devastating effect, in his fights. Although BL is physically fit, Aldo is fighting fit, and is thus better prepared to compete in the octagon than BL.

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

OK, I'll start.

Jose Aldo.

Aldo has far more experience in competitive fighting in general, and MMA in particular, and against higher-level and better-conditioned opponents than Bruce Lee faced during his life. Aldo is also every bit as quick, probably more so, in terms of all-around body speed and reaction time. I also think that Jose Aldo has greater 'killer instinct' than BL, and he has unleashed his aggression many times, to devastating effect, in his fights. Although BL is physically fit, Aldo is fighting fit, and is thus better prepared to compete in the octagon than BL.

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I agree with everything you said. In these debates with Bruce Lee supporters I try to get them to understand that while Bruce Lee was a spectacular Martial Artist in great shape he had zero professional fights, thus he is severely lacking in experience for someone who is supposed to be able to beat some of the best Mixed Martial Artists in the world.

Here are some comments I encountered on Youtube:

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Originally Posted by John Reeves

Bruce Lee was 155 pound before he died. And weight and size doesn't matter. Bruce was practically super human. He was well conditioned and was fast as lightning. Nobody in the MMA could keep up with him. He would knock them out in one blow.

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Originally Posted by John Reeves

Man how to put metal in his punching bag. That's superhuman strength in order to to hit a bag like that and also the man could you to finger push-ups with one hand and he kicked a guy who held a shield and the guy said it felt like a car ran over him. 

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You brought up reaction time, killer instinct and fitness. Aldo surely has the advantage in all of these attributes. All we have for Bruce Lee fighting is eye witness testimonies, not actual footage of real fights. The story of Bruce Lee vs. the Karate master on the YMCA handball court is interesting because its one of the only accounts of Bruce Lee in a full-contact challenge match. Jesse Glover said the fight ended in 11 seconds with Bruce Lee winning by knockout. If that is true then Bruce Lee had killer instinct but you have to consider the caliber of his opponent whose real name we don't even know. Bruce Lee was fast but I think Jose Aldo did have superior reaction time developed over years of training for and competing in MMA. As for conditioning while Bruce Lee was fit you're right to say that Aldo was conditioned for fighting. He has the stamina to go 5 Rounds. We have no idea what kind of stamina Bruce Lee has.

In fact there are several things we don't know about Bruce Lee having never seen him in a real fight.

Examples:

- What kind of chin did he have (how durable was he)?

- What kind of stamina did he have?

- How accurate was he?

- How well could he defend a takedown?

- How was his ground game?

- How powerful of a striker was he?

- What kind of heart did he have?

- How high was his fight IQ?

There are so many unanswered questions about Bruce Lee as a real fighter. In my opinion Jose Aldo takes this fight pretty quickly by damaging Bruce Lee's legs with kicks and then setting up punches and knees to the face. Bruce Lee have been tested so little in his life against high caliber opponents wouldn't be ready for a fighter the caliber of Jose Aldo.

Absolutely.

Regarding the 'karate master' that BL reportedly beat up; it could be he wasn't a master, or even an expert, at all. Even if he was, it wouldn't have any bearing on BL's ability to handle experienced professional fighters in the octagon. I have admired and respected BL for decades, for what he did accomplish. IMO, it's NO sign of respect from the BL worshippers to paint him as superhuman. BL was naturally athletic, intelligent, and talented for the martial arts. However, that doesn't translate into what he wasn't: a world-class professional fighter. Even if he had the hardest side kick while kicking someone holding a kicking shield for him, that's not the same as hitting or kicking a highly conditioned, moving opponent who's not cooperating with you. Plus, JA is fast as lightning, too. He's experienced at applying that speed while fighting, and has the conditioning to still have it when he needs it later in a fight.

I would also say that JA almost certainly grew up in a tougher environment than BL. Even if BL had some rooftop fights as a kid in HK, I doubt his environment was as dangerous as wherever JA came from in Brazil.

Regarding pure speed and power, people should remember the young Mike Tyson, a heavyweight. He had incredible speed, and while doing combinations and making full contact. His speed easily matched BL's, and he could maintain it with greater mass, continuity and killer instinct. There are many fighters and other athletes whose speed equalled or exceeded BL's.

I still respect/admire BL and always will, but one must be a realist. Just because he never lost a fight onscreen, is no indication of how he would have fared against someone like JA. I strongly suspect that, if they were honest about it, the Lee family would be relieved that BL never had to face a JA during his lifetime. Keep in mind, I'm not saying that JA is invincible either. But the octagon is his environment.

This whole idea that Bruce Lee was superhuman is based on physical feats that anyone who knows any better can recognize as ridiculous. Have you seen some of these claims?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFw7qON-Vgs

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Physical feats

Lee's phenomenal fitness meant he was capable of performing many exceptional physical feats. The following list includes some of the physical feats that are documented and supported by reliable sources.

• Lee's striking speed from three feet with his hands down by his side reached five hundredths of a second.
• Lee could spring a 235 lb (107 kg) opponent 15 feet (4.6 metres) away with a 1 inch punch.
• Lee's combat movements were at times too fast to be captured on film at 24fps, so many scenes were shot in 32fps to put Lee in slow motion. Normally martial arts films are sped up.
• In a speed demonstration, Lee could snatch a dime off a person's open palm before they could close it, and leave a penny behind.
• Lee could perform push ups using only his thumbs.
• Lee would hold an elevated v-sit position for 30 minutes or longer.
• Lee could throw grains of rice up into the air and then catch them in mid-flight using chopsticks.
• Lee performed one-hand push-ups using only the thumb and index finger.
• Lee performed 50 reps of one-arm chin-ups.
• From a standing position, Lee could hold a 125 lb (57 kg) barbell straight out.
• Lee could break wooden boards 6 inches (15 cm) thick.
• Lee performed a side kick while training with James Coburn and broke a 150-lb (68 kg) punching bag.
• Lee could cause a 300-lb (136 kg) bag to fly towards and thump the ceiling with a side kick.
• In a move that has been dubbed "Dragon Flag", Lee could perform leg lifts with only his shoulder blades resting on the edge of a bench and suspend his legs and torso perfectly horizontal midair.
• Lee could thrust his fingers through unopened steel cans of Coca-Cola, at a time before cans were made of the softer aluminum metal.
• Lee could use one finger to leave dramatic indentations on pine wood.

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I agree that it does a disservice to Bruce Lee's legacy to promote outright falsehoods about his physical abilities. Bruce Lee was in great physical condition. He was very athletic, very intelligent and dedicated to the Martial Arts but he was not superhuman. Superhuman abilities would be something like benching pressing 3x your body weight or running a mile in one minute. Something that goes beyond the limits of what a peak athletic human being could do.

Bruce was an innovator and way ahead of his time. For a guy rooted in the 1960's he did exceptionally well.

Had he been born in this era, and driven with the same motivations, he would arguably be at the cutting edge of advances in MMA.

People like Aldo are good representatives for the modern fighter who is dextrous and skilled.

Better to focus on the here and now.

That said, Rousey's coach Gene LeBell was friends with Bruce. McGregor fights out of Straight Blast Gym, which is, at least in part, a gym that cross-trains JKD.

While people are focused on historic figures, a new breed of fighter is busy training and readying himself. These are the ones I prefer to pay attention to.

Random thoughts.

Suki

I agree that Bruce Lee was an innovator and ahead of his time. I think if we brought Bruce Lee to the present and let him train MMA for a couple of years he would have the potential to do really well. But many people believe he had the tools to beat elite Mixed Martial Artists while he was alive.

Look at this video for instance:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONHwjpdf5mQ

The narrator claims that Bruce Lee was too fast to block and shows the Unstoppable Punch demonstration against Vic Moore as evidence. He claims that because Moore was a 10th degree Black Belt Bruce Lee was unbeatable and would win against all MMA fighters. There are so many flaws in this statement. For starters it's just a demonstration not a real fight against a resisting opponent. And if we learned anything about MMA it's that Dan grades don't equate to exceptional fighting skills. Many Karate Black Belts competed in MMA and showed striking skills below the level of journeyman Kickboxers proving that you need full-contact sparring to be exceptionally good at striking.

Vic Moore while a talented Karate practitioner excelled at point fighting. From his interviews he sounds like a hardcore Karate purist. I doubt he has cross-trained in grappling especially when he was young and I think he would lose easily in modern MMA if we brought him from his prime to the present.

Actually, Vic Moore couldn't have been a 10th-degree black belt in 1967. It would have been impossible. Not that black belt degrees mean much in regards to fighting ability. Tenth-degree does not equate to ten times better at fighting than a first-degree. In the vast majority of arts with belt degrees (BJJ probably being one of the few exceptions), in my observation, there wouldn't be much improvement in fighting ability that, say, a 6th-degree has over his own ability at first or second-degree, when he/she is younger and likely far more active. Much less a tenth-degree, who would be old by then. Most of the higher BB ranks are for contributions to the art anyway, as opposed to more advanced fighting ability over a lower degree BB.

Besides, Bruce Lee flicking his hand in the air in front of someone's face in a demonstration, essentially using the footwork and empty-handed version of a fencing strike, does not prove how he would do in a ring/octagon against a high-level, motivated, experienced, conditioned guy trying to take his head off or take him down. Even if he landed it in a sporting context as a fist strike (a jab, as opposed to the eye poke as demo'd), it wouldn't necessarily be a finisher. It might be shrugged off, or maybe p!ss the other guy off and motivate him even more. It could serve to close the gap and possibly set someone up for something else, though.

Yes, Moore is apparently a 10th degree Black Belt now but he wasn't back then. I agree that Bruce Lee's Unstoppable Punch demonstration is not evidence that he was a great fighter. By the way what do you make of some of the physical feats Bruce Lee is alleged to have done, particularly the punch speed test?

This is my take on them all:

1. Lee's striking speed from three feet with his hands down by his side reached five hundredths of a second.

This claim was made in Jesse Glover's book Bruce Lee: Between Wing Chun and Jeet Kune Do. I read the book. According to Glover this measurement was taken at his house with an electric timer. The speed of Bruce Lee's punch translates to about 40 mph. By comparison Ricky Hatton, a professional Boxer, had his punch speed measured and had an average speed of 25 mph with a top speed of 32 mph. Muhammad Ali's anchor punch against Sonny Liston was measured and the speed was about 42 mph.

I'm inclined to believe this one because Glover is a credible Martial Artist who went in to a lot of detail in his book. It's too bad they didn't record this one although you can tell Bruce Lee was fast by demonstrations such as the Green Hornet Screen Test.

So for this claim there is no proof but it is plausible.

2. Lee could spring a 235 lb (107 kg) opponent 15 feet (4.6 metres) away with a 1 inch punch.

This one is definitely true. Bruce Lee's One-Inch punch has been recorded on video and he did indeed send men flying with it.

3. Lee's combat movements were at times too fast to be captured on film at 24fps, so many scenes were shot in 32fps to put Lee in slow motion. Normally martial arts films are sped up.

This one is apparently true. I believe they addressed this claim in the commentary of Enter the Dragon which I own on DVD.

4. In a speed demonstration, Lee could snatch a dime off a person's open palm before they could close it, and leave a penny behind.

I don't believe this one. I've never seen this demonstration and it doesn't seem plausible.

5. Lee could perform push ups using only his thumbs.

I haven't seen this one but I have seen the one finger pushup so I'm inclined to believe it.

6. Lee would hold an elevated v-sit position for 30 minutes or longer.

I've seen pictures of Bruce Lee doing a V-sit so I know he could do it. But for 30 minutes? That's bull$hit. Gymnasts can tell you that is not possible.

7. Lee could throw grains of rice up into the air and then catch them in mid-flight using chopsticks.

There's no way Bruce Lee or anyone could do this. The rice would slip through the chopstick even if you have the coordination to grab it. And again there's no proof.

8. Lee performed one-hand push-ups using only the thumb and index finger.

This demonstration is on video so definitely true.

9. Lee performed 50 reps of one-arm chin-ups.

After researching this I don't believe the claim. The Guinness Book of World Records Holder for most one-armed Pull-Ups in one minute is George Gaydardzhiev who did about 17 in one minute. The video is on Youtube. Bruce Lee allegedly did 50. Consecutively with no rest? Not likely. And again no proof.

10. From a standing position, Lee could hold a 125 lb (57 kg) barbell straight out.

I would have to see this one to believe it. There's no proof and common sense indicates that this is not possible especially for a man Bruce's size.

11. Lee could break wooden boards 6 inches (15 cm) thick.

I've seen Bruce Lee break boards but 6 inches thick?! That is unlikely. Where is the proof? And besides, boards don't hit back. :p

12. Lee performed a side kick while training with James Coburn and broke a 150-lb (68 kg) punching bag.

That's possible. Punching bags can be broken.

13. Lee could cause a 300-lb (136 kg) bag to fly towards and thump the ceiling with a side kick.

No. There's just no way that this could be done. And again no proof.

14. In a move that has been dubbed "Dragon Flag", Lee could perform leg lifts with only his shoulder blades resting on the edge of a bench and suspend his legs and torso perfectly horizontal midair.

I've seen pictures of Bruce Lee doing this so I believe it.

15. Lee could thrust his fingers through unopened steel cans of Coca-Cola, at a time before cans were made of the softer aluminum metal.

Again, no. Yet again, no proof.

16. Lee could use one finger to leave dramatic indentations on pine wood.

I've never seen it tried but I don't believe this one either. And yet again no proof.

So at the end of the day a lot has been claimed about Bruce Lee with some claims being verified and some not. Many of these claims are preposterous. Bruce Lee was in great athletic condition. He was fast. He was strong. He was a human being and many professional fighters have met or exceeded his level.

This one is easy to answer - Aldo would win because he's trained for the ring and it's rules. Bruce would be hampered by the rules of the ring as he can't do finger jabs to the eyes or any other disallowed techniques he's used to training. Knowing the rules and training within those rules are two separate things. If you don't train within them, you're going to fall back on what you train under stress. Bruce would be disqualified or have his a$$ handed to him in a ring. Bruce admitted he didn't train for any sport fighting. He trained for street fighting where anything goes - ergo the eye strikes with Bil Gee, kicks to groin, etc.

Also, Bruce was 135 lbs when he filmed Enter the Dragon (and when he died), not 155 lbs.

Fight and sport science has evolved tremendously since 1973 when he died. Athletes today are stronger and faster, not just martial artists; but to not give Bruce his due for what he accomplished back then is short-sighted. 40 years have passed since his death and he's still gracing the covers of body building and martial art magazines. His characteristics are still unmistakenly imitated in movies today. That's one hell of an influence from a "simple kung fu guy".

A

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Originally Posted by SifuYui

This one is easy to answer - Aldo would win because he's trained for the ring and it's rules. Bruce would be hampered by the rules of the ring as he can't do finger jabs to the eyes or any other disallowed techniques he's used to training. Knowing the rules and training within those rules are two separate things. If you don't train within them, you're going to fall back on what you train under stress. Bruce would be disqualified or have his a$$ handed to him in a ring. Bruce admitted he didn't train for any sport fighting. He trained for street fighting where anything goes - ergo the eye strikes with Bil Gee, kicks to groin, etc.

Also, Bruce was 135 lbs when he filmed Enter the Dragon (and when he died), not 155 lbs.

Fight and sport science has evolved tremendously since 1973 when he died. Athletes today are stronger and faster, not just martial artists; but to not give Bruce his due for what he accomplished back then is short-sighted. 40 years have passed since his death and he's still gracing the covers of body building and martial art magazines. His characteristics are still unmistakenly imitated in movies today. That's one hell of an influence from a "simple kung fu guy".

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It has long been reported that while filming Enter the Dragon, Bruce was experiencing uncontrollable weight loss. It was apparently seen as problematic. I heard that he actually dropped down into the 120s. His actual healthy weight was probably somewhere in the 140s.

I don't think anybody was dissing BL in this thread. In the past, I have personally defended his (actual) accomplishments against some of the BL "haters". As you said, how many people will still be talked about in a positive manner 42 years after their death? Of course, there's also haters who get to vent more due to the Internet. But the point is, he did accomplish a lot in his short life.

Ironically, from around the late 1960s, BL did not refer to himself as "a kung fu guy". He had adopted quite a lot from Western sources (boxing, fencing, and various training methods and ideas on nutrition), as well as other Eastern sources into his personal routine. He had distanced himself from much of the traditional CMA by then.

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Originally Posted by SifuYui

This one is easy to answer - Aldo would win because he's trained for the ring and it's rules. Bruce would be hampered by the rules of the ring as he can't do finger jabs to the eyes or any other disallowed techniques he's used to training.

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What an amazing technique....extending 2 fingers and poking someone in the eye....as fast and hard as possible. I doubt that any Profession MMA fighters can ever learn how to accomplish this, not even all the way up to UFC fighters, including even the best of the best such as Aldo. How many jabs do Pro Boxers throws in an average 2 minute round? 30-40 jabs? Wonder how many tens of thousands of jabs they throw while training for speed, precision and power.... for most of their lives, everyday at the gym? But I doubt that they'd ever be able to master this spectacular, eye jab thingamajig that you're talking about.

BTW, the early UFC's allowed all forms of pressure points, eye jabs, throat strikes, nut squeezing, and just about whatever you want. Only biting, eye gouging and fishhooking were not allowed....BUT didn't stop the fight nor disqualified anyone. They just got fined $1000/incident but could still win the $60,000 purse at the end of the night and come out way ahead even if they eye gouged or bit 10 times = $60k-10k= $50k which was a hell of a lot for money back in 1994 ($80k today), and still is a lot today for the average Chopsocky BS'er who peddles training DVD's online...to make in one night.

I think you're misunderstanding my post friedrice. UFC does NOT allow finger jabs to the eye and BL practiced those as part of his training regiment and therefore, he'd be at a disadvantage (not being able to use it) and would lose. The original post, if I'm not mistaken, asked what would happen if both fighters were at the top of their game and fought in the UFC now; NO FURTHER TRAINING FOR THE FIGHT - just an understanding of the rules.

That's like asking a ballet dancer to do Country Western dancing (or vice versa) without practicing for it. They each would know what the other dancing style is by watching it, but certainly would lose in each other's contest.

BL didn't train for the UFC, Aldo does and would have the advantage.

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Originally Posted by SifuYui

I think you're misunderstanding my post friedrice. UFC does NOT allow finger jabs to the eye and BL practiced those as part of his training regiment and

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Sorry, it is you who misunderstood. The EARLY UFC's, as clearly stated, did allow finger jabs to the eye. And early UFC fighters were mostly junk, compared to now....with the exceptions of such, like Royce Gracie and a few others, who'd still get destroyed by top fighters today.

What's the difference between a jab with a full fist and an eye jab with 1-2 fingers? The latter is mostly trained by women who are afraid of getting raped in a darkly lit parking lot.

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BL didn't train for the UFC, Aldo does and would have the advantage.

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Punching someone in the face works just the same in the ring as it does in the streets, prison, Mad Max Thunderdome, wherever. No excuses for mythical fighting figures.

Did Aldo fight in the early UFC? No, so why even bring that up? The post is about the UFC and its current rules NOW! Sheeeesh!

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Originally Posted by SifuYui

Did Aldo fight in the early UFC? No, so why even bring that up? The post is about the UFC and its current rules NOW! Sheeeesh!

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Just to show how comical eye jabs are when trying to talk about combat training (although, with the exception of women who are training to fight off rapists). I mean, did you at one time, pay some dude money to teach you how to poke another dude in the eye or grab and squeeze his balls?

If it's so comical, how come the ref stops the fight when a guy gets poked in the eye? I've never seen them stop a fight because they got punched in the eye?

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Originally Posted by SifuYui

If it's so comical, how come the ref stops the fight when a guy gets poked in the eye? I've never seen them stop a fight because they got punched in the eye?

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I guess you really don't understand why so now I have to explain it to you rather than have you read between the lines. There are many reasons. One being that while an eye poke is effective, you make it sound like no one else knows how to do it except the lame TMA, too deadly for sports, BS people. I already told you that's it's just throwing a jab with the fingers extended. You think some fat Kung-Fu guy is going to be faster and more powerful than a UFC fighter or Pro Boxer at jabbing. Then there's footwork, head movement, slipping, etc. that's superior in Boxing.

Now one of the other reasons that fights are stopped (temporarily or ended) once there's even a slight eye poke....is OBVIOUSLY, to gain sympathy so that the other guy could be in danger of a loss of point for the next time or even a DQ. Whether it's a fight for $0 or $1 million, it's all part of the game because the other guy violated the rules and the guy harmed, should always try to get the most out of it. Especially if it's a title fight for MILLIONS, of course he's going to complain. But in a street fight or some BS fight to the death, fantasy scenario....you think that a UFC fighters is jsut going to drop into fetal position and cry from an eye poke?

And there are many other reasons. But what's comical is that you think that eye poking is some kind of nuclear weapon or something that no one else can do, and do much better....because you know...they're athletes maybe?

Ummm, yeeeeaaaahhh riiiiiight. Except I never said that (there really should be a reading comprehension requirement to post a reply).

Well, I'm done feeding the troll.

I apologize for derailing the thread MysticNinjaJay.

Honestly we shouldn't even be talking by eye poking. Remember the rules, no cheating. I put that in there for a reason, so we could eliminate factors that would distract from a real fight. This is an ideal fight. UFC rules. Jose Aldo vs. Bruce Lee and it's a clean fight.

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Originally Posted by SifuYui

Ummm, yeeeeaaaahhh riiiiiight. Except I never said that (there really should be a reading comprehension requirement to post a reply).

Well, I'm done feeding the troll.

I apologize for derailing the thread MysticNinjaJay.

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You just can't make any further arguments, so now you play the typical Troll Card. I guess the truth hurts the most when someone points out that you train women's anti-rape tactics and thinks it requires skills that only fat, chubby people can pull off.

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Originally Posted by MysticNinjaJay

Honestly we shouldn't even be talking by eye poking. Remember the rules, no cheating. I put that in there for a reason, so we could eliminate factors that would distract from a real fight. This is an ideal fight. UFC rules. Jose Aldo vs. Bruce Lee and it's a clean fight.

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Aldo would destroy Bruce Lee standing up....and even worse on the ground. Bruce Lee couldn't even beat Jack Man Wong with his eye and throat strikes. Lee posted flyers all around Chinatown challenging people to fight, because he's was a street bully, always looking to make a name for himself (this part I like about him). Wong, who was basically a Kung-Fu nobody who worked as a waiter and teaching Kung-Fu to like 3 students on the side, answered the challenge, thinking that it was a SPORTY/FRIENDLY sparring match....until Lee immediately tried to eye jab Wong as Wong extended his hand to "touch gloves" first. Wong said Lee was trying to kill him....but Wong wanted to keep it friendly and didn't use his "devastating kicks"....which just means that they were both Kung-Fu bull****ters and it's uncertain who won that fight as we get conflicting stories from both sides. And I'm not going to take Lee's wife's word for it. Other fight accomplishments of Bruce Lee, includes......punching out an "unruly stagehand", haha.

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Originally Posted by friedrice

Aldo would destroy Bruce Lee standing up....and even worse on the ground. Bruce Lee couldn't even beat Jack Man Wong with his eye and throat strikes. Lee posted flyers all around Chinatown challenging people to fight, because he's was a street bully, always looking to make a name for himself (this part I like about him). Wong, who was basically a Kung-Fu nobody who worked as a waiter and teaching Kung-Fu to like 3 students on the side, answered the challenge, thinking that it was a SPORTY/FRIENDLY sparring match....until Lee immediately tried to eye jab Wong as Wong extended his hand to "touch gloves" first. Wong said Lee was trying to kill him....but Wong wanted to keep it friendly and didn't use his "devastating kicks"....which just means that they were both Kung-Fu bull****ters and it's uncertain who won that fight as we get conflicting stories from both sides. And I'm not going to take Lee's wife's word for it. Other fight accomplishments of Bruce Lee, includes......punching out an "unruly stagehand", haha.

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I agree that Aldo would win standing or on the ground. As far as Bruce Lee vs. Wong Jack Man is concerned I read Showdown in Oakland, it had a lot of interesting claims. For starters it seems that the fight occurred because Bruce Lee made an open challenge at the Sung Sing Theater in San Francisco's Chinatown for any Chinese Martial Artist in the area to fight him. I've never heard of him creating flyers this appears to have been a verbal challenge after Bruce Lee was embarrassed on stage having given a failed Martial Arts demonstration. The fight itself as you know had conflicting accounts. Bruce Lee says it ended in decisive victory for him. According to his wife Linda the fight lasted about 3 minutes, Wong Jack Man ran away after a brief exchange and Bruce Lee chased him around but tired himself out in the process. Eventually he caught him took him to the ground and pounded him until he verbally submitted. But according to Wong Jack Man the fight lasted 20-25 minutes and ended in a draw.

Personally I find Bruce Lee's account to be more credible. He claims he won but admits to flaws in his own strategy as he gassed and bruised his hands punching the back of Wong Jack Man's head. Bruce realizing that Wing Chun was ineffective decided to improve his Martial Arts training and developed Jeet Kune Do. A 3 minute fight sounds more realistic than a 20-25 minute fight for a no rules challenge match. What were they doing for 20-25 minutes? I also don't think it's credible that Wong Jack Man treated the fight like a friendly sparring match and Bruce Lee took it so seriously he acted as if he was trying to kill Wong. Wong Jack Man's refusal to use deadly kicks is also not credible. Also in Showdown in Oakland it says that Wong Jack Man claimed in the newspaper that Bruce Lee punched at him about 60 times and kicked at him about 25 times. Wong didn't say how many times he tried to strike Bruce. That doesn't sound believable that he could count the number of strikes over the course of 20-25 minutes either. I do find it curious that Wong Jack Man said in the newspaper that he would fight Bruce Lee in a rematch at a public exhibition to settle matters but Bruce Lee never accepted the challenge.

Anyway this thread is about Bruce Lee vs. Jose Aldo. Bruce Lee had other alleged fighting exploits including winning an amateur Boxing tournament in Hong Kong, defeating the 3 time champion of the event Gary Elms. His family says he got in a lot of street fights as a kid. So apparently he had some fighting experience but not enough full-contact challenge matches against credible opponents to be a match for modern MMA fighters like Jose Aldo.

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Originally Posted by MysticNinjaJay

Anyway this thread is about Bruce Lee vs. Jose Aldo. Bruce Lee had other alleged fighting exploits including winning an amateur Boxing tournament in Hong Kong, defeating the 3 time champion of the event Gary Elms. His family says he got in a lot of street fights as a kid. So apparently he had some fighting experience but not enough full-contact challenge matches against credible opponents to be a match for modern MMA fighters like Jose Aldo.

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Focusing on this part specifically. Honestly, Bruce definitely has the right attitude and enthusiasm for something like MMA. Give him training time, have him be relatively young in the early UFCs and he probably would've been a pretty good lightweight, possibly a match for Aldo.

In Enter the Dragon he performs a (relatively poor) armbar, indicating that while he wasn't excelling at it, but he was learning. I think in one of his interviews he said something about hating competition because of rules. It sounds like an excuse today but the way he spoke in those interviews it sounded more like he didn't like the lack of contact so to speak. But the early UFCs would've suited his desires just fine and he might ave trained extensively for that format if he was the right age for it. (I say that because he would've been in 53-54ish then.)

Dig him out of the grave now and tell him he's fighting Aldo with zero prep time, however, I'd doubt he'd last long.


This is really sort of pointless, anyway. Bruce was a tough guy, in great shape, an inspiration for many (including many MMA fighters) and that would be enough to kick any of our asses. But he is an actor first and foremost, and there is no shame in that seeing how he was one of the first Asian American movie stars and if you ask me that is a much bigger accomplishment than winning a Karate tournament.

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Originally Posted by Krottyman

Focusing on this part specifically. Honestly, Bruce definitely has the right attitude and enthusiasm for something like MMA. Give him training time, have him be relatively young in the early UFCs and he probably would've been a pretty good lightweight, possibly a match for Aldo.

In Enter the Dragon he performs a (relatively poor) armbar, indicating that while he wasn't excelling at it, but he was learning. I think in one of his interviews he said something about hating competition because of rules. It sounds like an excuse today but the way he spoke in those interviews it sounded more like he didn't like the lack of contact so to speak. But the early UFCs would've suited his desires just fine and he might ave trained extensively for that format if he was the right age for it. (I say that because he would've been in 53-54ish then.)

Dig him out of the grave now and tell him he's fighting Aldo with zero prep time, however, I'd doubt he'd last long.


This is really sort of pointless, anyway. Bruce was a tough guy, in great shape, an inspiration for many (including many MMA fighters) and that would be enough to kick any of our asses. But he is an actor first and foremost, and there is no shame in that seeing how he was one of the first Asian American movie stars and if you ask me that is a much bigger accomplishment than winning a Karate tournament.

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With prep time I think this becomes a different conversation. I agree that Bruce Lee had the right attitude for MMA. He had the athleticism and intelligence to be a great fighter. I say give him 1-2 years to train for MMA and he becomes a competent Mixed Martial Artist. I think he'd need a few fights before he is ready to challenge Aldo but it would be interesting to see what Bruce Lee could do with preparation. I agree that what he accomplished in life was very significant to Martial Arts culture. We might not have MMA if it weren't for Bruce Lee's influence.

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Originally Posted by MysticNinjaJay

With prep time I think this becomes a different conversation. I agree that Bruce Lee had the right attitude for MMA. He had the athleticism and intelligence to be a great fighter. I say give him 1-2 years to train for MMA and he becomes a competent Mixed Martial Artist. I think he'd need a few fights before he is ready to challenge Aldo but it would be interesting to see what Bruce Lee could do with preparation. I agree that what he accomplished in life was very significant to Martial Arts culture. We might not have MMA if it weren't for Bruce Lee's influence.

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I don't know about not having MMA without Bruce Lee (though we definitely had the audience thanks at least in part to him).

He would definitely need a few fights under his belt but with that MMA training he will definitely stand a much better chance.

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Originally Posted by MysticNinjaJay

I've never heard of him creating flyers this appears to have been a verbal challenge after Bruce Lee was embarrassed on stage having given a failed Martial Arts demonstration.

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It's been a while since I read these accounts. But good stuff that you're adding. I recall that Bruce Lee was trying to make a name for himself by issuing challenges. Flyers sounds like a simple thing to do.

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Personally I find Bruce Lee's account to be more credible. He claims he won but admits to flaws in his own strategy as he gassed and bruised his hands punching the back of Wong Jack Man's head. Bruce realizing that Wing Chun was ineffective decided to improve his Martial Arts training and developed Jeet Kune Do.

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I think I agree with you that it probably went, somewhat, Bruce Lee's way. But I also believe that Wong came there thinking that it was a sporty match and Lee started immediately with the anti-rape eye pokes and nut strikes to put the guy down. Yea, Bruce probably beat him....but who was Wong at that time anyway, nobody really. Now not to take away from his accomplishments later on in life as a SIFU with his own lineage up to today, so I'm not trying to insult him.

There was an account by a Chinese journalist who said he saw Wong the next day, working his normal job as a waiter at the cafe and he wasn't wrecked or anything from the fight. Just a slight abrasion near his eyes from what seems to be a woman or Bruce Lee's scratching. Of course, I added the part about the "woman" scratching :)

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Anyway this thread is about Bruce Lee vs. Jose Aldo.

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I think that examining Bruce Lee's fight experience, really shows that he wasn't very good. There's a video of him hitting a punching bag, and wasn't very impressive.

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Bruce Lee had other alleged fighting exploits including winning an amateur Boxing tournament in Hong Kong, defeating the 3 time champion of the event Gary Elms.

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As I recall, this was some Amateur event at the High School level, so about 18 and under. To begin with, I don't think that Hong Kong was ever the scene for Boxing, ever. So whoever Gary Elms was, that he beat Chinese kids at Boxing in Hong Kong, I doubt it was that big of an accomplishment. Whatever Boxing training that Bruce Lee had at that time, it couldn't have been very good since his main MA was Wing Chun and he was pretty distraught by its effectiveness vs. Wong that he kind of renounced WC and started training Western Boxing, Wrestling, etc.

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Originally Posted by Krottyman

I don't know about not having MMA without Bruce Lee (though we definitely had the audience thanks at least in part to him).

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Yea, there was Bartisu, developed in the late 1900's, combining different styles of MA.

Then there was Mitsuyo Maeda, who was an international fighter who supposed to have had 2000+ fights, many were No Holds Barred. Then he taught the Gracies, who in their own right, challenged and fought NHB/Vale Tudo for nearly 100 years in Brazil.

Bruce Lee certainly was influential in all forms of MA with lots of myths and legends added...inspiring many masters and champions, no doubt.

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Originally Posted by friedrice

Yea, there was Bartisu, developed in the late 1900's, combining different styles of MA.

Then there was Mitsuyo Maeda, who was an international fighter who supposed to have had 2000+ fights, many were No Holds Barred. Then he taught the Gracies, who in their own right, challenged and fought NHB/Vale Tudo for nearly 100 years in Brazil.

Bruce Lee certainly was influential in all forms of MA with lots of myths and legends added...inspiring many masters and champions, no doubt.

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Honestly thinking of MMA as a "new thing" of any kind, in any era, is incredibly dumb. I mean, think about it.

Muay Thai is a modern product of millions of Thai fighters coming together to make a living fighting for money. I'd be surprised if there weren't originally dozens of fighting styles that make up what we see now, at least half of which might be dead (the rest being taught privately or as part of Buddhist monk practice).

Taekwondo is a Korean interpretation of Shotokan Karate.

Kung Fu masters who competed in the Leitai took up training methods from boxing and Judo and they themselves contributed to the formation of the KMT's Sanda (and before the Cultural Revolution they probably did the same for the PRC's Sanda).

SAMBO from Russia is primarily Judo with Russian folk wrestling.

Kuntao is when Kung Fu and Silat met. Silat destroys Kung Fu, Kung Fu destroys Silat, two keep mixing until they become indistinguishable.

etc. etc.

Every culture that cares about having an effective fighting style knows they can't shop in their own house for techniques. If they want to win fights with styles they've never seen before, they have to take a few pointers from people they lost to.

I will say that for our era MMA is definitely the culmination of that though.


As for your comments on Bruce Lee thinking his WC was ineffective:

I'm not a huge fan of Wing Chun either but I doubt he crosstrained because he felt that his art didn't work. As far as I recall, his JKD cirriculum (ironic, as he hated the idea of a defined "style") still had some Wing Chun concepts in them. So when people say that frankly I don't think that holds water. Plus, there are photos of him doing Chi Sao with people he taught, why would he teach anything related to WC if he thought it was crap? That goes against his entire life philosophy.

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Originally Posted by friedrice

It's been a while since I read these accounts. But good stuff that you're adding. I recall that Bruce Lee was trying to make a name for himself by issuing challenges. Flyers sounds like a simple thing to do.

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I have actually heard your claim before I just haven't heard of a source. I read Showdown in Oakland which had a lot of interesting insights on the fight including Bruce Lee's verbal challenge at a theater which found its way to Wong Jack Man.

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I think I agree with you that it probably went, somewhat, Bruce Lee's way. But I also believe that Wong came there thinking that it was a sporty match and Lee started immediately with the anti-rape eye pokes and nut strikes to put the guy down. Yea, Bruce probably beat him....but who was Wong at that time anyway, nobody really. Now not to take away from his accomplishments later on in life as a SIFU with his own lineage up to today, so I'm not trying to insult him.

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Based on what I read in Showdown in Oakland it does seem that Wong Jack Man thought they were going to spar while Bruce Lee was trying to seriously hurt him. I think this scenario is entirely plausible. In the world of fighting Wong Jack Man was nobody but as a Martial Artist he was a young master so I think Bruce Lee deserves a little credit. This wasn't an untrained opponent he was facing.

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There was an account by a Chinese journalist who said he saw Wong the next day, working his normal job as a waiter at the cafe and he wasn't wrecked or anything from the fight. Just a slight abrasion near his eyes from what seems to be a woman or Bruce Lee's scratching. Of course, I added the part about the "woman" scratching :)

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This is also mentioned in Showdown in Oakland. The man in question according to Rick Wing who witnessed the scratch was Grandmaster Ming Lum.

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I think that examining Bruce Lee's fight experience, really shows that he wasn't very good. There's a video of him hitting a punching bag, and wasn't very impressive.

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I don't make too much out of the punching bag footage. I don't think we can know Bruce Lee's true level without seeing him fight. What we can see is that he was in great athletic condition, trained hard and had a good philosophy on Martial Arts.

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As I recall, this was some Amateur event at the High School level, so about 18 and under. To begin with, I don't think that Hong Kong was ever the scene for Boxing, ever. So whoever Gary Elms was, that he beat Chinese kids at Boxing in Hong Kong, I doubt it was that big of an accomplishment. Whatever Boxing training that Bruce Lee had at that time, it couldn't have been very good since his main MA was Wing Chun and he was pretty distraught by its effectiveness vs. Wong that he kind of renounced WC and started training Western Boxing, Wrestling, etc.

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Certainly this fight didn't mean much in the world of Boxing but it is significant that Bruce Lee beat a local Boxing champion. It means he had some talent.

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Originally Posted by friedrice

Yea, there was Bartisu, developed in the late 1900's, combining different styles of MA.

Then there was Mitsuyo Maeda, who was an international fighter who supposed to have had 2000+ fights, many were No Holds Barred. Then he taught the Gracies, who in their own right, challenged and fought NHB/Vale Tudo for nearly 100 years in Brazil.

Bruce Lee certainly was influential in all forms of MA with lots of myths and legends added...inspiring many masters and champions, no doubt.

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When I said that without Bruce Lee there might not be MMA I was referring to how he had popularized Martial Arts. Maybe MMA would still exist but Martial Arts would probably not be as popular as it is today.

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Originally Posted by Krottyman

As for your comments on Bruce Lee thinking his WC was ineffective:

I'm not a huge fan of Wing Chun either but I doubt he crosstrained because he felt that his art didn't work. As far as I recall, his JKD cirriculum (ironic, as he hated the idea of a defined "style") still had some Wing Chun concepts in them. So when people say that frankly I don't think that holds water. Plus, there are photos of him doing Chi Sao with people he taught, why would he teach anything related to WC if he thought it was crap? That goes against his entire life philosophy.

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Based on his interview in Black Belt Magazine it seems that Bruce Lee thought Wing Chun was impractical after the Wong Jack Man fight and decided to change his approach to fighting. I think it's more proper to say that he augmented his fighting style rather than outright disavowing Wing Chun because as you said he still practiced some Wing Chun concepts.

That sounds somewhat more believable. Though people take that to mean that he ditched all his Kung Fu. Obviously he didn't.

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Originally Posted by Krottyman

That sounds somewhat more believable. Though people take that to mean that he ditched all his Kung Fu. Obviously he didn't.

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Yes. He basically upgraded his Martial Arts training and adopted a new philosophy on Martial Arts. He criticized some the the classical applications of Traditional Martial Arts, for instance the Black Belt Magazine article mentions that he didn't like forms but he blended techniques from various disciplines including fundamental elements of Wing Chun in to Jeet Kune Do, his new Martial Art. Chinese Martial Arts were still the root of his training he just adopted concepts from other disciplines including Western disciplines like Boxing and Fencing.

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Originally Posted by MysticNinjaJay

In the world of fighting Wong Jack Man was nobody but as a Martial Artist he was a young master so I think Bruce Lee deserves a little credit. This wasn't an untrained opponent he was facing.

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True, I think both of them were good fighters, as far as the average, local fighters in a fighting gym goes.

[/QUOTE] I don't make too much out of the punching bag footage. I don't think we can know Bruce Lee's true level without seeing him fight. What we can see is that he was in great athletic condition, trained hard and had a good philosophy on Martial Arts. [/QUOTE]

The bag footage exposes a lot. His techniques weren't very good. There are Crossfit people in great condition, but they can't fight. While BL is certainly a trained martial artist and he did fight in the streets, it's still nowhere close to fighting full contact at the Pro levels.

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Certainly this fight didn't mean much in the world of Boxing but it is significant that Bruce Lee beat a local Boxing champion. It means he had some talent.

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There seems to be questions about whether or not this Champion Boxer that BL allegedly beaten, even existed. This was in High School...so BL was around 18 or younger. He only had Wing Chun training at that time (because he was getting his ass beaten in streetfights) so he started WC at around 16. Even if he had a full 1-2 years of Wing Chung.....ever since UFC 1, when since then has anyone took Wing Chun seriously, especially when matched against a Boxer ....and under the RULE SET of Boxing? And this was supposed to be the Champion Boxer that he whooped in ROUND 1? And when was the last time that Hong Kong was known for producing, high level Boxers...since ever? And the high school level even?

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When I said that without Bruce Lee there might not be MMA I was referring to how he had popularized Martial Arts. Maybe MMA would still exist but Martial Arts would probably not be as popular as it is today.

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No doubt. He's an inspirational figure in Martial Art's history. A timeless icon. Plenty of people revere him, and rightfully so. Because it would be career suicide for any public figure, champion, etc. to badmouth Bruce Lee. No good can come out of it.

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Originally Posted by friedrice

True, I think both of them were good fighters, as far as the average, local fighters in a fighting gym goes.

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Yeah at the time they were both Traditional Martial Artists. We all know that TMA fighters aren't the best because many of them lack real fighting experience. Bruce Lee apparently had a lot of street fights but even he had to reevaluate his Martial Arts training after this fight. Wong Jack Man said ridiculous things about this fight like he refused to use his kicks because he felt they were too deadly which means that he probably lacked a lot of real fighting experience because he believed in Martial Arts myths like deadly Kung Fu kicks.

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The bag footage exposes a lot. His techniques weren't very good. There are Crossfit people in great condition, but they can't fight. While BL is certainly a trained martial artist and he did fight in the streets, it's still nowhere close to fighting full contact at the Pro levels.

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Yes, I keep telling people that fighting nobodies in street fights and fighting elite professional fighters are two different things. It's like playing Basketball at your local street court vs. playing in the NBA. I've seen the training video you are talking about. The heavy bag punching and side kick don't look very impressive but he may have been a lot better at real fighting than practicing in his backyard reflects.

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There seems to be questions about whether or not this Champion Boxer that BL allegedly beaten, even existed.

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Supposedly he went to King George V School in Kowloon, Hong Kong. I just recently emailed the school for records because people keep doubting the existence of Gary Elms. All he is known for is losing to Bruce Lee in a high school Boxing tournament and apparently never turned Pro so he probably has too low a profile for there to be any official record of his existence. But we'll see what the school says if they ever get back to me.

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This was in High School...so BL was around 18 or younger. He only had Wing Chun training at that time (because he was getting his ass beaten in streetfights) so he started WC at around 16. Even if he had a full 1-2 years of Wing Chung.....ever since UFC 1, when since then has anyone took Wing Chun seriously, especially when matched against a Boxer ....and under the RULE SET of Boxing? And this was supposed to be the Champion Boxer that he whooped in ROUND 1? And when was the last time that Hong Kong was known for producing, high level Boxers...since ever? And the high school level even?

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According to Rolf Clausnitzer the fight actually lasted the full 3 minutes with Bruce Lee winning by decision, having knocked Elms down several times throughout the fight. I think it is impressive for Bruce Lee to have won any Boxing tournament having only trained in Wing Chun. Maybe the story was made up but if it was true that is at least some accomplishment. It means next to nothing in to Boxing world of course but it does count as full-contact fighting experience.

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No doubt. He's an inspirational figure in Martial Art's history. A timeless icon. Plenty of people revere him, and rightfully so. Because it would be career suicide for any public figure, champion, etc. to badmouth Bruce Lee. No good can come out of it.

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Indeed. I do wonder though about the testimonies of people who actually knew him. Jim Kelly described him as an incredible fighter who got the better of talented Martial Artists in sparring. While he didn't name names we know Bruce Lee trained with some world champion point-fighters. Kelly described Bruce Lee as the Michael Jordan of sparring and said he was untouchable. There's also a Bob Wall interview circling around that says some of these sparring sessions were full-contact.

We know that Bruce Lee trained fanatically and his philosophy on Martial Arts training was revolutionary so maybe he was a pretty good fighter. I'm a firm believer that you have to fight at a high level to beat world class competition so I don't think he could beat someone like Jose Aldo but as a Martial Artist who trains for personal growth he was probably one of the best from his era.

When BL trained with (or taught) fighters like Chuck Norris and Joe Lewis, they drilled a lot but never sparred.

I have heard that BL had said there were at least two karate fighters of the time that would probably beat him; Jim Harrison and Mike Stone. I'm pretty sure Harrison could have taken BL. BL also stated he would have lost to Hayward Nishioka if Nishioka could take him down.

I did hear that BL sparred karate fighter Louis Delgado and had gotten the better of him. Supposedly after their sparring match, Delgado's gi top was shredded, and he was impressed with BL.

Several years ago, during a tournament, a few friends and I went out to lunch with Ming Lum. When asked about the BL/Wong Jack Man fight, I distinctly remember him saying that he did NOT attend the fight; that he was supposed to, but ended up not going. He also stated that of all the MAists he had ever met or known, he considered BL to have left the biggest impression on him.

When well known people and celebrities talk about Bruce Lee, it's usually always favorable. There's really no good that can come out of it for badmouthing his name. He's a timeless icon in history pretty much. And he's dead. And his on also died. Seemingly, both deaths are tragic and can be construed as mysterious. Bad mouthing Bruce Lee will just bring about a ****storm of hate.

Take Anderson Silva, no doubt BL inspired him as a child. Who wouldn't want to be BL after watching Enter the Dragon as a kid. But as Silva rose towards become an undefeated UFC world champion for many years, I'm sure he can tell the difference between proven and unproven fighters. Hell, Silva and Machida even sucks up to Steven Segal because they all want chances at Hollywood B-movies when they retire.

While those who knew BL and trained with him, such as Lewis, Innosanto, McQueen, etc. They had a deep love for him. None of them are going to say negative things about him. And why not keep the superhuman myth going? Especially Innosanto, who made a career that paid his bills off of the BL name. Sure, he's certainly a legit Martial Artist also, no doubt...but he wouldn't have had close to his success w/o the BL name.

While Chuck Norris, who seemed to be a friend, but not very close....kind of eluded in his interview (on Youtube) that BL was not at his level of being a "Pro Fighter". If you watch the interview, it looked like he wanted to say it straight out, but corrected himself while stumbling. It's been a while since I watched the video though. And most to all of these friends and close friends of BL are Martial Artists who are honorable and loyal.