Bagua's Celestial Energy

In "The Power of Internal Martial Arts", B.K. Frantzis distinguishes between 'earthly' and 'celestial' arts. There are two extremely interesting passages in the Bagua chapter of the book;


1. "bagua actively uses the chi of the environment, drawing energy from the earth and sky...bagua people...quite literally draw energy from the planets and stars"

2. "in bagua you do not use reflexes to respond to an attack...you move spontaneously in response not only to the energies of yourself and your opponent, but also to the environmental energies around you"


Without wanting to be seduced by the supernatural, these ideas seem absolutely incredible. Can anyone offer any comments on the validity of these claims, and if so how one might go about drawing this celestial energy. I hope I have not misunderstood what old B.K. is trying to say!

Many thanks!

S

These kinds of practices are part of Taoism. They are crazy about stars, trees, rocks and other things like that. You won't find many martial arts people in the US who are interested in this kind of thing. Elsewhere, I have no idea.

-Jess O

This mysticism makes these internal martial arts more interesting than many of the external martial art counterpats. Its fun to think that your drawing power from things around you. You are, but only indirectly. It can inflate our sense of self, which is good to a point. Be careful though, overconfidance and grandiosity may result. If any of us were to step in the ring with a proffesional boxer of our own size who draws power not from heaven or other objects but only his waist would surely put us in our place. Let your ego go, the last statement is true for 99.9% of us. I practice with great intensity and imagination but remember to stay grounded in reality.

Hi Black Mantis,

It is easy for our modern-minded thinking to interpret these types of statements mystically. Since our way of thinking is conditioned by our present culture and the modern era of science we may forget that the vast majority of people in the past were uneducated and illiterate with no scientific understanding of cause and effect relationships. What we view as common everyday phenomena was fantastic and mysterious to those who experienced the same phenomena in the past. Today we understand much better how the world works in terms of cause and effect, i.e. THIS cause produces THAT effect. Since we understand the cause and effect relationships of phenomena more completely, we define phenomena from a different perspective. One of the phenomena we understand much better is the mechanics of the human body. They knew what worked but, didn’t necessarily understand why it worked, so Chi was a source attributed to causing some phenomena in order to explain how or why something occurred the way it did. In China many everyday phenomena were explained in terms of their cause and effect relationships by the powers or effects of Chi; Heaven (Celestial) Chi and Earth Chi.

In regards to the reference to Earth Chi, all strikes draw their energy/power from the earth. This is a scientific fact, not a mystical statement! It is easily demonstrated by observing your body mechanics when striking. Initial power is generated by pushing off the EARTH with the rear foot. The power is then amplified through the whip-like motion of the twisting of the waist and shoulders.

Just as a glass may be half full or half empty merely by how one chooses to define it, one may also attribute the power of a strike as coming FROM the earth because in a sense, it does. Without gravity (earth) to push against we could not generate sufficient power to strike with any meaningful power. Think of trying to strike someone in a weightless environment. Without something to push off of there is no real power. When your strike contacted the opponent it would propel you backwards as well as the opponent greatly reducing or eliminating the intended damage. Even twisting of the waist to generate power requires something to push off of in order to generate sufficient power. So from a certain perspective we may say the power is generated or borrowed from the EARTH! Thus Earth Chi is the source of the power of our strikes.

The individuals who formulated these explanations merely perceived and/or defined the world differently than we do today! It seems mysterious and fantastic to us because we view the world from a different perspective and we don’t understand their perspective. If we take the time to understand their perspective and remember they viewed the world from a less scientifically aware foundation we may begin to understand their meaning. In addition, they tended to view phenomena more holistically while we tend towards a more linear mindset. To us everything occurs in a linear manner one thing occurs after another and one thing causes another; to them all things occur at once. When one views everything as occurring all at once a much different manner of conceiving cause and effect results since cause and effect occurs in a seemingly linear fashion.

When it comes to Celestial Chi it is unclear what exact phenomena is being defined. However, it should be fairly easy to understand that it is not necessarily to be taken literally. Since they didn’t understand the cause and effect relationships of most phenomena it is easy to understand that a physical phenomenon may be interpreted in this manner.

Lets take breathing exercises for an example. We now know that proper aerobic exercise releases endorphins that act as a pain reliever and mood elevator. We also understand that more oxygen to the brain enhances our mental function. We understand the science behind these effects. But imagine an individual who has no knowledge of science or the scientific studies demonstrating these effects. Through simple observation and experience born of practice one may observe these effects for themselves without requiring scientific experimentation to demonstrate they are so. One will learn through observation that there is something about taking more oxygen into the lungs that makes them think more clearly and feel more relaxed. Not understanding the chemical reactions within their body and viewing phenomena holistically rather than linearly, it would appear that air (Heavenly/Celestial Chi) creates the physical effects we experience; and from one perspective, it does. While we view the effects today primarily as a consequence of exercise, they would view it as an effect of oxygen. That is something inherent within oxygen that creates the effects they are experiencing. It is the same phenomena defined differently that is all that is occurring here, since the effects are not experienced in the absence of oxygen. Their glass is half full and ours is half empty, or vise versa, depending on how we choose to define it!

In both circumstances and from a simplistic perspective it is both causes that create the specific effect. Exercise in the presence of oxygen creates clear thinking and a relaxed feeling! No oxygen, no effect! No deep breathing, no effect! Pushing off the ground with my foot creates power. No ground, no effect! No pushing off the ground, no effect!

Your second quote may be explained simply as well. In most circumstances we perceive an action, process the information, determine a response, and then act. This is an inefficient manner of responding to a threat. It takes too much time and there are many opportunities for error. When we respond spontaneously we are using our intuition. With intuition one may respond to a threat before one actually perceives the threat through the known five senses. With intuition we act without knowing why until after we respond. This type of intuition is somewhat common, but not normally developed. An event that has occurred for many of us is spontaneously stopping at an intersection for no known reason and with no legal requirement to do so only to observe shortly thereafter a car barreling through the intersection. If the had not stopped we would have been struck by the car. It has also occurred to me a number of times while sparring. I have reacted to a threat that was not present at the time of the action, but by reacting spontaneously I avoided being struck.

So your quote, "in bagua you do not use reflexes to respond to an attack...you move spontaneously in response not only to the energies of yourself and your opponent, but also to the environmental energies around you" describes the act of developing ones intuition to the point where you are able to anticipate a threat without observing specific actions that indicate the threat and responding spontaneously without using the mental reasoning process.

Thank you Scott that is all extremely interesting. I do however have a couple of additional questions regarding your explanation.

You refer to not using the mental reasoning process and depending on intuition in responding to the opponent's energy. I find this a satisfactory explanation but wonder how Bagua specifically is designed to develop this skill.

As intuition is essentially the ability to understand (and therefore act) independent of prior empirically experienced knowledge, I do not understand how the specific techniques of Bagua (circle-walking, single palm change etc.) develop these abilities whereas other styles (Xingyi's five elements, Shaolin's Lohan methods, Wing Chun's chi sau) do not.

I appreciate your statement regarding pre-cognition in sparring, but I would not explain this in terms of intuition as it is based upon experience and subconscious reference to memory in the hippocampus; I imagine a martial arts novice would not experience this type of precognition.

I therefore wonder if Kumar is somehow indicating that the specific type of chi created through Bagua allows an interaction between the exponent and the universal energy. This is certainly consistent with the Taoist belief in a single unified consciousness.

So, what is it about the specific methods of Bagua that Kumar is suggesting reach this almost super-human level of perception? Xingyi and Tai Chi also have highly developed Chi Gung and Nei Gung methods, but neither make such a claim.

What do people think?

Many thanks!!

S

Well I studied with Kumar for ten years. I think he's being a bit hyperbolic here. He is referring to advanced stages of alchemy. None of this will help your training right now. Just relax, develop proper structure and find a good teacher.

Hi Black Mantis,

I don’t think that there is anything special about Bagua training that provides for Kumar’s results. In fact I don’t think the ability is related to MA training at all. There are a number of references to this phenomenon in Taoist and Zen literature. It is a quality of the mind and therefore not dependent upon any particular art, but on a state or condition of mind. Consequently, any physical training one engages in, absent of concomitant mental training, would not develop the ability.

One of my favorite circumstances illustrating this ability occurred to a Zen Master named Shoju. Shoju, a teacher of the well-known Japanese Zen Master Hakuin, was invited to observe a training session of Master Swordsmen. Once the training was conclude the swordsmen discussed Zen with Shoju and remarked that they had doubts anyone could defeat an experienced swordsman relying only on the strength of spirit alone. Shoju invited the swordsmen to attack him all at once, which they did. Not one of them was able to strike Shoju, but Shoju rapped each one on the head with his fan! When asked how he accomplished remarkable feat he replied, “If your eye is true and your mind unobstructed, there is nothing you cannot overcome, including a sword attack.”

I don’t think of it is as “understanding independent of reason”. To me it is responding spontaneously without any thinking process at all. Understanding implies a thinking process of some kind. There is no understanding required, merely perception of some sort followed by direct action. It is similar to stimulus/response, but the stimulus is not necessarily a physical stimulus.

Your explanation of pre-cognitive responses may not be entirely accurate. It seems that it presupposes preconditioning is the source of spontaneous reactions and this may not always be the case. It is true that one may condition themselves to perceive subtle signs and then subconsciously react to them, but that is not the circumstance to which I am referring. There is a type of spontaneous response that transcends the traditional form of stimulus/response process defined as “consciously perceiving physical stimuli and then responding in a preconditioned manner”. If there are no physical stimuli then the response is not based upon the traditional stimulus/response paradigm.

The question then becomes, is there truly NO stimulus? It would seem to follow rationally that there must be a stimulus regardless of our perception of it. We ARE performing an action with a purpose after all even if we do not perceive the purpose until after the action, as in the example of spontaneously stopping at an intersection. We stop spontaneously not really perceiving the danger until after it becomes apparent. In this circumstance we have the right of way and yet stop to avoid a collision we seem to have no way of knowing will occur! If we had consciously perceived the impending danger we may presume we would engage in a thought process that might create indecision (brake or gun it!) increasing the probability of a collision. So what is it that causes us to decide to brake without direct knowledge of the impending danger? This is the quality of mind to which I am referring and if it occurs in one circumstance it may occur in another, therefore to presume it does not apply when sparring or fighting would be an error it would seem!

Thank you Scott, certainly I agree with the majority of your points- in fact I am soon going to University to read Japanese so the philosophical qualities of Zen are very interesting to me! I'll have to look this Shoju up!

Regarding the subconscious precognition of an accident, I still believe that this could be argued to be explicable with the use of memory and experience; while at the point before the accident, there is no conscious awareness of the impending car-crash, the brain is nevertheless assimilating information a posteriori; the sound of another car, the damp weather conditions, the experience of having not crashed through practise, even perhaps the telecommunicated belief that another car is round the corner.

This however is not to say that the skills you have mentioned cannot be achieved and this intuition experienced via other means. The notion of an unobstructed mind is particularly appealing, and I believe there is a Japanese group who practise "Shintaido" who aim to achieve this through traditional purification methods (for instance sitting under freezing cold waterfalls).

The meditative aspects of other arts also claim to create a profound connection between the individual and the macrocosm. Kumar mentions an experience he had practising Xingyi in Taiwan in which he became aware of another higher level of energetic perception, and several Indian energy arts are claimed to have similar results.

Perhaps the answer lies in nature- many of the central philosophical schools of the Orient acknowledge the natural world as the source of everything (Taoism and Shinto being particularly strong examples). Being 'in tune' with a universal, natural and omnipresent consciousness would obviously have the effect of complete awareness. This is what Buddhist monks in Shaolin and other temples have historically aspired to through practise of the martial arts and introspection. Therefore I do find the suggestion that this skill of intuition can be gained through specialised meditative techniques appealing, I just wonder why Kumar seems adament to glorify Bagua particularly.

Western science is still very limited when it comes to dealing with consciousness- the current trend in materialism and the unification of 'brain' and 'mind' does seem likely, but very little can be empirically proven for human rights reasons as well as through the still fairly primitive nature of neuro-science. We cannot therefore afford to disregard the possibilty that traditional oriental medicine and philosophy has answers that we have not considered here in the west.

Any thoughts?

S

Hi Black Mantis,

Shoju is an interesting person and I spent some time looking for more information about him on the net. I cannot find anything in my data base on what I found as it has been sometime since I did the search. If I can find it later I will let you know. I do remember he is referred to by more than one name and he was noted for meditating at night in a cemetery surrounded by hungry wolves. Most of the information on him is found in conjunction with Hakuin since he was an influential teacher of Hakuin and Hakuin apparently became more well-known than Shoju. There is a similar event to “The Master Swordsmen” reported to have occurred to Hakuin as well. I have not been able to locate any further information regarding Hakuin’s experience however. If you locate any information I would be interested in hearing about it!

There is a similar event said to have occurred between Morihei Ueshiba, the founder of Aikido, and one or more swordsmen. His comments regarding his enlightenment are similar to the statements you report of Kumar.

As I have said I think an argument can be made for memory and experience motivating some apparent spontaneous acts and it certainly must occur to be sure. It would seem that if a reaction occurs, even if the evidence justifying it only becomes apparent afterwards, there must have been some information received to stimulate that action. The question remains from where does the information originate? Does the information arrive from physical stimuli or is it from some other unknown source? If we assume there are subtle signs that are received through the five senses then we may also presume that the human tendency to avoid danger is the programming that motivates the protective action of stopping at the intersection in contradiction of reason and the rules of the road. That is, the subtle information received is processed subconsciously and then we receive an impulse from the subconscious that we respond too in order to preserve our safety. This seems to be a reasonable explanation as the preservation of our safety appears to be a biological imperative.

However this argument only holds water when we appear to react in a reasonable manner to preserve safety. Please allow me to relate another story to illustrate another perspective:

About 25 years ago I attended a lecture by a Zen Master. (I do not remember his name.) During the lecture he discussed the topic of spontaneous actions. He related an event that occurred to his brother during WWII in the South Pacific. During a particular battle the Japanese position was overrun by the Americans. The Japanese forces evacuated their positions and ran for their lives. His brother felt a counter intuitive impulse. He felt the impulse to run TOWARDS the invading force. From a logical perspective this would be a ludicrous act. Reason would seem to dictate that if you run towards an invading force that is firing upon you, your death is all but assured. In this circumstance the brother was the only Japanese to survive the battle.

Here it appears the argument of “subtle physical stimuli leading to a subconscious impulse in order to preserve one from danger” cannot apply. The decision made by this soldier could not have been arrived at using a reasoned assessment of the situation whether the reasoning was accomplished consciously or subconsciously. It would appear then that there is some other form of information being received beyond physical stimuli to influence such a choice of action and not only influence the action, but impel if not compel a, by all accounts, foolish act!

So the conundrum remains, from where does the information originate and what is it that is doing the impelling or the compelling? Does it really matter? It may be of some benefit to understand the origins in order to facilitate the development and use of such an ability. In the end though, it works and that is what counts!

A closing thought, these topics are not the sole purview of Asian philosophy; these same phenomena are addressed by many western philosophers and religious mystics as well. Socrates himself credited his personal “daemon” as impelling him to actions that saved his life on a number of occasions.

Thank you Scott that is all extremely interesting, it seems we cannot come to any conclusions regarding this form of intuition!

Regarding Baguazhang specifically, there seem to be a number of other extra-ordinary skills surrounding this art. In the excellent website "China From Inside" I read an interview with Ma Chuanxu who claims to be able to perform 'Ching Gung', a form of light step in which "you are able to walk without touching the ground".

The explanation offered by the website and Ma is that " 'the idea is to use your Dantian, waist, to move. I'm sitting here right now. If you want to attack me I can move fast forward without using legs, but by straightening the waist.' (Mr.Ma made a demonstration - from a sitting position he was able to move fast very far forward before he touched the floor with his legs). "

Again, this seems like a remarkable ability but I don't want to seem naive in blindly accepting it. What are your thoughts regarding this skill and the plausibility of Ching Gung?

Thank you!

S

Hi BlackMantis,

First I should make it very clear I am not a practitioner of Bagua. I have a familiarity with it, but I cannot comment directly concerning its teachings. I can make statements based upon my over 30 years of experience with many differing arts, self-defense tactics and the principles of Tao.

The interview you cited with Ma Chuanxu was very good. He clearly knows his stuff. I agree with most of his comments but disagree with a few as well.
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First:

In regards to your question concerning what Ma calls “Light Skill” which he identifies as “walk[ing] without touching the ground”, I think we would call that “jumping”, LOL!!! But seriously, having not seen his movement I cannot really make a fair assessment. But reason dictates this is not to be taken literally. It is most likely more of a description meaning “it is ‘like’ not touching the ground” or “the feeling is ‘like’ you are not touching the ground.” Please note that his following comment is, “It is not mysterious at all, it's just a matter of skill, of hard practice.” All skills, when performed expertly, look marvelous to the uneducated. Just as an illusionist can perform marvelous slights of hand through practice or Michael Jordan can perform amazing feats on the basketball court a skilled MAist may perform feats that look amazing to those without proper knowledge or experience, but once the method is understood can be seen to be merely skills expertly performed.
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There is much to learn from Ma’s interview. Here are a few of my thoughts concerning some of his other comments:

“‘Clever Power’ in Bagua is expressed by its techniques and strategy.”

I like this point very much. Fight smart first! This allows you to use as little as force or effort as necessary to accomplish your purpose.
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“I emphasize Bagua basics a lot. They are very important and if the student does not practice them correctly, according to my requirements, then it is like throwing all the things I teach away. It is not that I'm conservative but the problem is that many students do not study hard and never get satisfactory level of basic skills. Learning techniques and routines is without any value if the basics are not good.”

He is correct here. Basics are the heart and soul of training! Numerous forms and techniques are of no benefit if your mastery of the basics is poor!
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Interviewer: “As far as I know Taoists suggest that one should also stop having sex, otherwise the Small and Large Heavenly Circles will never open. Is that true for Bagua Neigong practice as well?

MR.MA: Yes, this is very important condition. My teacher told me that at the very beginning - if you want to develop true skill, you must be like a monk, living in celibacy.”

I strongly disagree with this assertion. It is simply not true. It is a common theme in ancient times, not only in the east but in the west too. Here are some points to consider:

Repeated research demonstrates that sexual activity prior to athletic activity IMPROVES performance.

Some may argue that this does not apply to internal Chi development. They argue that sexual activity inhibits Chi flow. This limited view is in conflict with the Principles of Tao. It is based upon a misunderstanding of Tao. If it is our purpose to bring ourselves into accord with Tao and if we accept that being in accord with Tao is to live a natural life in balance then we must accept that part of a normal, natural human life is sexual activity. Therefore, to not recognize and accept our normal sexual needs is to be out of accord with Tao and thus out of balance. One cannot properly harmonize their Chi if they are out of balance. In fact, Chi is more easily developed when we are in accord with Tao and our own human nature. To fight or inhibit un-naturally normal, balanced sexual activity is to be OUT of accord with our humanness. To be out of accord with our own human nature is to be out of accord with Tao. We are therefore out of balance and Chi CANNOT flow freely under these circumstances.

One may ask, then how did people accomplish such feats through abstention? Well first, who is to say they wouldn’t have developed faster, more effectively and more comprehensively had they lived a life more in accord with Tao? Secondly, it isn’t necessary to abstain from sexual activity or engage in sexual activity. Neither is what develops Chi; it is mental concentration in accordance with the elimination of impediments to the free flow of Chi. When we deny our normal human needs we encourage within ourselves a preoccupation with what we are being denied, thus impeding free Chi flow. By fulfilling normal sexual needs we reduce any possible preoccupation that may occur and thus the impediments. When we deny ourselves our normal needs we give greater power of distraction to that which we are denying thus reducing our concentration. This is simple human psychology.

Lastly, Chinese culture is not the only culture to have perceived and utilize the functions of Chi. Many “primitive” or nature based religions have a similar concept of Chi. Not all of them share the view of sexual abstention. In my younger days I was an apprentice for some time to an American Indian Medicine man. He was very familiar with the “Universal Energy” and he taught that sexual activity was one method that would help to balance and channel this energy properly. This teaching is in agreement with a proper understanding of Taoist principles, not as they are taught by some, but as they actually are! A balanced life neither excessively pursues nor runs away from natural human needs and functions. They are kept in their proper balance according to the example illustrated by Yin-Yang.
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Interviewer: “It is easy to understand the first part of the saying :"When the opponent does not move, I do not move either" but could you explain the second part?

MR.MA: "Once the opponent moves, I move first". This means once the opponent decides to move, there is a very short moment when he prepares to attack. You should be able to notice this moment and strike when it is not over yet. This requires very good Neigong and high skill - timing and speed.”

This is a very good point, but it is untrue that is founded only upon “very good Neigong”. This is simply good tactics. One recommended by many other proficient and well known masters of the MA, two of the most notable are Miyamoto Musashi and Bruce Lee, neither one exponents of Neigong!
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I like Ma’s assertions concerning the “Mud Wading Step” and many other of his comments. This is one of the best articles on the MA I have read in a long time. His misunderstanding of Chi development is most likely because he is merely repeating what he has been taught and they are a very common misunderstanding taught by many many Neigong teachers, but they are clearly not in accord with the principles of Tao.