Who has the right to say what is and what isn't Wing Chun?

Certain individuals continue to post over and over again about what is and what isn't Wing Chun. It get's pretty tiresome. What gives them, or anybody else, the right to say if my kung fu is WCK or not? Really! I mean if someone does crappy WCK diluted with other styles... OK say that. But as long as it has some connection to WCK, what you call your art is your own darned business.

When I started training WC in the late 70s, all WC was Ip man WC (as far as any of us knew). So, if we saw something that wasn't of Ip Man lineage maybe we would have said it wasn't real WC. Well now we know better. There are many lineages and even within lineages, so many variations.

Now of course, not all are WC systems equally effective. And separate from that issue, not all are equally "pure". Some blend in other systems ...pak mei, spm, 18 lo han, long fist, grappling and so forth. If they blend in too much outside stuff, maybe in the interest of accuracy they really should call themselves by another name, like Bruce Lee's JKD. But that's their business.

Honestly, the way some here carry on about WC "DNA" it almost reminds me of a racial purity thing! Purebred or mutt, I'll take what works. Like I said if you think your WC is better (Hi Kevin!) good for you. If you adapt your WC for sport fighting in the ring, OK. That's your right. And however it turns out, if you still call it WC, I may critique it, but you can call it WC/WT/VT or whatever the heck you want.

--Any thoughts?

Hendrik. Only he can say. I remember back on my first day at wing chun class my sifu had me sign a binding arbitration agreement that in the case of any question about what is or is not wing chun that the dispute will be settled by Hendrik and only Hendrik. He will give you a DNA paternity test to decide if you have wing chun DNA or not.

Sorry I could not help myself. :)

Seriously though this is the sort of question that makes wing chun people the brunt of jokes. Ha ha they cannot even agree what is or is not wing chun. It is like boxing we do not need Tyson or
Roach to define it we can see it for ourselves.

Dragon has 9 sons. They all look different. One of them is a turtle.

http://www.china.com.cn/culture/txt/...nt_8442654.htm
http://wenku.baidu.com/view/dfdb6a03...789ebc925.html

- The name is not important.
- There is no standard way to do technique.

As long as you can manage to land your fist on opponent's face, that's all it matters.

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Originally Posted by Grumblegeezer

Certain individuals continue to post over and over again about what is and what isn't Wing Chun. It get's pretty tiresome. What gives them, or anybody else, the right to say if my kung fu is WCK or not? Really!
--Any thoughts?

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If we are egoless and true to the original concepts and principals of WC, we can nitpick each other about what is legitimately expressing them in a durable way. Really, that's the only way left available to us that can produce any tangible results in separating wheat from chaff.

History has mostly been lost to time and is a matter of he said/she said, so no matter how "1850" you claim your WC to be, that really doesn't matter much.

No one can definitively say what is and isn't wing chun we can simply express an opinion, ideally supported by a rationale. So that said, for something to be considered wing chun IMHO it should adhere to the guiding principles and concepts of the art.

I dont have to define it.

the SNT or SLT from proper Red Boat WCK and off spring has define WCK clearly.

be it Ipman, YKS, SCWC, Yik Kam, Gulao all has the same proper core definition.

as simple as this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQ8h4UMRFU8






WCK is an Art type it is not Dao or Tao or God or Zen which can be anything as you like it or as I like it.



any one certainly can evolve their art. but is it still keep the core or it is no longer having any relation with WCK core?

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Originally Posted by tc101

Hendrik. Only he can say. I remember back on my first day at wing chun class my sifu had me sign a binding arbitration agreement that in the case of any question about what is or is not wing chun that the dispute will be settled by Hendrik and only Hendrik. He will give you a DNA paternity test to decide if you have wing chun DNA or not.

Sorry I could not help myself. :)

Seriously though this is the sort of question that makes wing chun people the brunt of jokes. Ha ha they cannot even agree what is or is not wing chun. It is like boxing we do not need Tyson or
Roach to define it we can see it for ourselves.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hendrik

I dont have to define it.

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Then stop trying to.

i never try to , i just pull the curtain and let others see what it is.

or may be it is you who is resisting to see what it is?

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Originally Posted by tc101

Then stop trying to.

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If you try to find the Chinese wrestling DNA, you will find this.

http://imageshack.us/a/img24/8929/sc2cv.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img689/8172/sc1p.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img692/2203/sc4fu.jpg

Why do you want to do that for?

Things always get better and better through generations. Any single point of time in history cannot define the entire life cycle of the TCMA progress.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hendrik

i never try to , i just pull the curtain and let others see what it is.

or may be it is you who is resisting to see what it is?

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You do not get it no one is resisting it is that no one cares. I can tell what is boxing what is wing chun what is muay thai by simply looking at the movement. Easy. We do not need DNA or Hendrik or anyone to tell us. Anyone can see it. Since people see it for themselves do not care about your DNA and your female art and so forth.

I do not care how wing chun was done by people 200 years ago just like I do not care how people boxed 200 years ago. That has no meaning for me today. I am not practicing wing chun to preserve how guys in the past did it. Yes how they did it in the past was wing chun just like how guys boxed in the past was boxing. Things grow and change and evolve and yet the original and the new are both the art. You want to lock it in time.

But martial arts cannot be locked in time as you keep saying. Only dead things are fixed and locked in time.

You are fixated on this definition thing and you cannot see past it. Besides your fixation you have demonstrated your paranoia, inflexible thinking and your disjointed reasoning. I do not know why anyone with any sense would take anything you say seriously.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Grumblegeezer

Certain individuals continue to post over and over again about what is and what isn't Wing Chun. It get's pretty tiresome. What gives them, or anybody else, the right to say if my kung fu is WCK or not? Really! I mean if someone does crappy WCK diluted with other styles... OK say that. But as long as it has some connection to WCK, what you call your art is your own darned business.

When I started training WC in the late 70s, all WC was Ip man WC (as far as any of us knew). So, if we saw something that wasn't of Ip Man lineage maybe we would have said it wasn't real WC. Well now we know better. There are many lineages and even within lineages, so many variations.

Now of course, not all are WC systems equally effective. And separate from that issue, not all are equally "pure". Some blend in other systems ...pak mei, spm, 18 lo han, long fist, grappling and so forth. If they blend in too much outside stuff, maybe in the interest of accuracy they really should call themselves by another name, like Bruce Lee's JKD. But that's their business.

Honestly, the way some here carry on about WC "DNA" it almost reminds me of a racial purity thing! Purebred or mutt, I'll take what works. Like I said if you think your WC is better (Hi Kevin!) good for you. If you adapt your WC for sport fighting in the ring, OK. That's your right. And however it turns out, if you still call it WC, I may critique it, but you can call it WC/WT/VT or whatever the heck you want.

--Any thoughts?

---

Good topic.

This has happened in all sorts of pursuits, try talking to yoga people about the "real" yoga..... youve been warned!

Personally, i have no problem you defining what WC is as per your lineage or understanding. Thats fine, its your (and your lineages) take on the general style you are doing.

But what irks me, and plenty here, is someones "study" which then defines all WC as he sees it.

And you know what? Id be all ears if he;

a) gave some bonafide evidence backed by scholars/academics etc that are independent to his claims

b) had students (or himself) show real applications of his 1850 take on it

c) Didn't accuse people of not doing WC (me as an example) if you disagree with him.

d) Wasn't such a tosser (that would help a lot!

Ive done two distinctly different WC styles yet they have a "flavour" that makes them distinctly WC and is obvious to most

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Originally Posted by Hendrik

i never try to , i just pull the curtain and let others see what it is.

or may be it is you who is resisting to see what it is?

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No, you just pulled aside a curtain to reveal you standing there on your soap box pushing YOUR theories

You don't care doesn't mean others don't care.

Created your own martial art , call it anything you like, don't call it Wck.

Btw, you don't even practice Wck. Jerry and many others does. So, please not speak for others what you don't know.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tc101

You do not get it no one is resisting it is that no one cares. I can tell what is boxing what is wing chun what is muay thai by simply looking at the movement. Easy. We do not need DNA or Hendrik or anyone to tell us. Anyone can see it. Since people see it for themselves do not care about your DNA and your female art and so forth.

I do not care how wing chun was done by people 200 years ago just like I do not care how people boxed 200 years ago. That has no meaning for me today. I am not practicing wing chun to preserve how guys in the past did it. Yes how they did it in the past was wing chun just like how guys boxed in the past was boxing. Things grow and change and evolve and yet the original and the new are both the art. You want to lock it in time.

But martial arts cannot be locked in time as you keep saying. Only dead things are fixed and locked in time.

You are fixated on this definition thing and you cannot see past it. Besides your fixation you have demonstrated your paranoia, inflexible thinking and your disjointed reasoning. I do not know why anyone with any sense would take anything you say seriously.

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Another wcner wanna bee. Sorry to disappoint you on the reality.

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Originally Posted by GlennR

No, you just pulled aside a curtain to reveal you standing there on your soap box pushing YOUR theories

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hendrik

You don't care doesn't mean others don't care.

Created your own martial art , call it anything you like, don't call it Wck.

Btw, you don't even practice Wck. Jerry and many others does. So, please not speak for others what you don't know.

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How the hell do you know what he does?????

And is Jerry your new hero now or something??