just a comment....the kwan sword would be used to a great effect against horses, not from them
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just a comment....the kwan sword would be used to a great effect against horses, not from them
ahh little Julian!...wondered when you were going to pop up here:D
FWIW, there's also that myth about Shaolin monks fending off Japanese pirates with heavy iron staffs. Again, it's seems pretty heavy for combat. If you look at the evolution of weapons, we started heavy with metals like bronze, then progressed to lighted, stronger stuff like steel. Weapons get lighter, faster and sharper. This of course, makes the whole Shoalin monk thing kind of odd since it was more recent. The original Kwan Dao was probably heavier than the steel ones we are used to using, but I doubt that a combat weapon was 100+. If you have doubts, try a heavy Kwan Dao - this baby weighs in at 13 lbs and if you try swing it, you'll realize how heavy 100+ might be http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/45-81cs.html
And that calf story, although a great myth, seems highly unlikely to me too. It's like the bamboo jumping myth. Plant some bamboo, and jump over it each day. As it grows, you learn to jump higher and higher until you're jumping up to rooftops. Ever seen bamboo grow? It grows so fast you can almost see it. I grow some goldenrod and bisseti and man, my bisseti just shot up to well over my head in about a month.
Legends often exaggerate. That's why we call them legends. But even if it's not historic fact, it has intrinsic value for what it exalts. To be critical of a 100 lb Kwan Dao myth is like questioning how Noah could collect two of every animal and keep them on an ark for 40 days. You miss the point of the allegory. You get lost in the details of a myth and fail to extract the moral.
At the same time, we should all guard against presenting myth as fact. This habit plagues the martial world.
A wild guess about how anthropologists might estimate the size of various parts of the neanderthal brain - mummified corpses in glaciers, preservative swamps, that kind of thing.
Gene-
Exactly! Myths have their place--but presenting them as fact is a disservice.
Kinda like 400-0 records for a certain Gracie. :)
"Kinda like 400-0 records for a certain Gracie."
Isn't that all of 'em. I heard they have to choke a man to death to get their black belts or something.
highlander claymors could NOT weigh over 6lbs... they were one of the narrowest two-handers ever made thus, they would be much lighter... they averaged at 4lbs.
out of frustration, i have issued a call-for-help from some of the well-respected weapon enthusiasts of the Netsword Forum... (we all need our back-up)
i will expect to see Stu because of his general negative attitude towards the asian-arts hehe
and about the 100lb bow thing? um... that was an estimate but i don't seem that much off... perhaps 6 shot/pm?
and it is possible to make 10 shots with a bow in a minute... i can pull maybe 7 or 8 with my little hunters bow made of fibre glass but it is one of those ones that u barely have to pull... it has those wheel things on the ends of the bow that gives you that extra kick :P
i'm 15 so i bet someone stronger/faster would be able to get 10 in a second... not with much accuracy though.
there basically is no melee weapon that is functional and is not ceremonial that weighs more than 15lbs...
and broadswords were NOT broad. it was just a name.
20lbs is even heavy for any polearm... not even a lucerne hammer would reach that amount.
a hammer v bladed weapon in weight = hammer wins... hammer is lighter.
oh, and the Zweihander (Z-sword) was probably the heaviest two-hander i can think of... it was called the three-hander (zwei is german for three)
probably the only functional sword that would get up to 8 or 10lbs.
as a friend from Netsword has said, you can stick with your 100lbs... we can compete sometime, i'll stick with my 1.5lb swords, u can use your 100lb broadsword or kwan dao... if u can find one... (made of lead :P)
oh... and a heavier sword would not be good against cavalry. NO sword would be good against cavalry... most likely, u would dislocated the shoulders or if u tried to stand with your sword infront of u, u would be trampled.
polearms were used for cavalry.
honestly... i actually expected the better-half of you people ont his forum to actually know something about weapons... (not meant to be offensive, i'm just disappointed)
Julien--
You make a good point about the pole-arm vs the horse, but is this perhaps tainted by your familiarity with western cavalry tactics? I don't believe the massed charge was a staple of Asian battle tactics--it's rather well known that if an infantry formation managed to withstand the initial shock of a mass cavalry charge (thanks usually to grounding their pole-arms 'ala Braveheart), then the mounted riders were in trouble--it's hard to keep the horses in locked formation and protect the flank and rear from the opposing infantry--you can fit people in the cracks. Some will die--some will pull the rider off.
What I mean is this--if horses were used less as shock troops and more as skirmish troops, like the mongols, would a grounded pole arm be as necessary?
Also, did the Chinese have stirrups? I know YOU won't think that's a stupid question Julien, as you're well aware it changes EVERYTHING :)
MPS - Is there ANYTHING you don't know/won't discuss :)
Stirrups! I know, I know, but still! Maybe we should discuss the relevance of tea in the industrialisation of Northern England......
:D
If you want to discuss the industrialization of Britain, discuss the textile industry--tea was entirely fermented in the places it was grown in the british empire, as I recall, and shipped as a finished product. However, considering I've been utterly wrong in the past, especially on British history, perhaps you could let me know? :)
Although I supposed it was probably shipped loose and PACKAGED in Britain, since the Empire didn't actually like their colonies to have factories--marcantilism at it's finest!!! So I imagine there was probably some sort of manufacturing industry built around the packaging, yeah?
Cotton, on the other hand was imported raw, if I'm not mistaken.
And, for your edification, I know absolutely nothing of visual art. How's that? :)
Someone said it was to be used from horseback. How? Wouldn't the horses head and hind quarters get in the way of moving it? I think Gene nailed it pretty good.
I was really looking for the link between tea as a mild antiseptic and the unusually healthy workforce in the Manchester and Yorkshire areas, specifically in the cotton industry where poor conditions often lead to a poor production rate.... etc...
But Yes Mr.Valentine, all else was spot-f*cking-on!
Git!Quote:
edification
I might just bring up visual art now too **** you off!
LOL at DelicateSound!
If you'd like, I could execute a "troll mode," and start talking about how MMA will beat Kung Fu all the time.
But it is mercantilism by the way.
The word is from the time of industrial stability, from 1873 I think. Victorian capitalism for you. :rolleyes:
Quote:
If you'd like, I could execute a "troll mode," and start talking about how MMA will beat Kung Fu all the time.
LOL!
Yeah--I noticed I had misspelled it, but I was too darn lazy to fix it.
Mercantilism--probably the downfall of the British Empire, honestly. Although I will say that historically, previously British Colonies have done better than most other countries' colonies.
Lazy Yanks!
Yes - it probably was the downfall. Unlike the US Empire that gets it's goods made in an indian sweatshop for $1 :D
We got it all wrong. Labour force at home! Who would be unemployed then?!!
Yup--the sweatshop---not so different from Liverpool or Yorkshire back in the day---or any of the US factories for that matter.
I'm hardly a marxist (in the inevitability of economic history sense)--but I've never understood why those who wish to "preserve the environment," and "protect laborers everywhere," can't see that these are concerns you only have when you have a standard of living that supports the technology that ALLOWS you to do this.
In other words, it's all very sad. Developing nations aren't allowed to use their resources or they risk losing international aid because of the environmental damage that "development," causes--and when alternative technologies are pointed out, everybody seems to forget that you can't use those technologies without massive development in physical and social infrastructure.
This is why I think that globalization will eventually pay off for everybody. Put a Ford factory in Mexico, and what you get is a middle class--and from there you get education.
Don't get me wrong--it won't happen overnight, and there are places with incredible corruption that prevents a lot of good things, but over time it will get better.
Just for the record guys,
the famous sword of William Wallace, was not a Claymore. Nor was the sword used in the Mel Gibson epic a Claymore. If you ever get across to Scotland, visit the Wallace Monument near Stirling, and you'll realise that the sword weilded by William Wallace, could never have been thrown one handed across a battlefield by an Australian midget. I don't know what it weighed, but I would guess 30-50 lbs. I guess all you sword fanatics knew that though eh!
AndyM
P.S. Scotland is not in England either!:D
It's worth noting for comparison purposes that baguazhang practitioners were quite famous in Chinese martial legend and history for wielding enormous and extremely heavy sabres. They weighed seven pounds. That should put the 'one hundred' figure in perspective.
Merry - Could you find a reference for the Neanderthal/memory thing?
Braden, I'll see if I can find it. I seem to recall watching it on TV, so I'll give it a shot :)
Sorry Julien,
I could swear you said ten arrows per second. As for ten a minute, i would personally say thats a bit low. I could set off an arrow with accuracy every 3-4 seconds, if not more. Japanese archers who practice "professionally" can generally get one off a second or two.
Zweihänder. Zwei means TWO, not three.Quote:
Originally posted by Julien
oh, and the Zweihander (Z-sword) was probably the heaviest two-hander i can think of... it was called the three-hander (zwei is german for three)
probably the only functional sword that would get up to 8 or 10lbs.
IronFist
Braden--
Here's one link
http://www.uth.tmc.edu/uth_orgs/pub_...6/neander.html
Briefly discusses the role of the frontal lobe--indirect at best, and not exactly what I recall seeing--but then again, I just remember thinking that was an interesting tidbit :)
Experts get stuff wrong too. It could be that the guy they interviewed read this research and translated slightly greater frontal lobe capacity in the "might be," sense to "Well, here's why..."
Interesting stuff. I imagine her book "Modeling the Early Human Mind" is out by now; might be worth a look.
Slightly off-topic, I think there is something to the suggestion that Neanderthal melded with Sapiens, rather than dying off in the explicit sense. Although there is something comfortingly romantic in linking Neanderthal to the consistent "native, dying species of an older time" myths, like we see in Eaters of the Dead.
I was more just interested in any finding concerning the neural basis of memory that I might have missed. I think to make a leap from even an intact Neanderthal brain to the conclusion that they had perfect memory assumes a better knowledge of the topic than we currently have.
actually, it was a claymore...Quote:
Originally posted by AndyM
Just for the record guys,
the famous sword of William Wallace, was not a Claymore. Nor was the sword used in the Mel Gibson epic a Claymore. If you ever get across to Scotland, visit the Wallace Monument near Stirling, and you'll realise that the sword weilded by William Wallace, could never have been thrown one handed across a battlefield by an Australian midget. I don't know what it weighed, but I would guess 30-50 lbs. I guess all you sword fanatics knew that though eh!
AndyM
P.S. Scotland is not in England either!:D
a claymore is basically just a celtic sword with an unusually narrow blade for a two-handed sword.
william wallace's sword was unusually narrow and it was celtic
most claymores do have upturned quillions though
and they weigh 6lbs at most... probably 4 or 5 pounds usually though
pick up one foot of steel about the same length and width... u will be surprised
i recently picked up my chin-up bar from one end... it felt incredibly cumbersome for a piece of metal that was only 2lbs.
honestly, the guess of 30-40lbs is highly uneducated
since no one seems to want to... i suggest again GO TO HTTP://WWW.ARMOR.COM AND CLICK ON INFO! THEY MAKE SWORDS! THEY MAKE GOOD SWORDS! THEY MAKE GOOD WEAPONS! THEY ARE ONE OF THE BEST PLACES U CAN BUY A FUNCTIONAL SWORD FROM!
they have it all there.
oh, and i didn't know asians didn't have stirrups but still, u don't use a sword against cavalry... u'll still die or be horribly injured. i would hate to have my shoulder dislocated or have a charging horse land on me.
(grounded polearm was also used to keep the horse from falling on u.)
honestly, pick up a bench-press bar that weighs 30 pounds and try to wield it as a staff... u won't be able to effectively
many people bench-press 100lbs as their workout...
u really think u can wield something that u workout with for strength as a weapon against someone that has a REAL weapon? (i am calling a 100lb kwan dao a fake weapon :P)
meet me in a few years with your oversized weapons... ignorance may be bliss but knowledge is power. :)
Nope!
"Man armed only with catapult should not hide in desert!"
A bench press bar is usually 45lbs (the shorter ones might be 30lbs). And I don't know many people (men) who bench 100lbs as a workout. Most people tend to start with 135.Quote:
Originally posted by Julien
honestly, pick up a bench-press bar that weighs 30 pounds and try to wield it as a staff... u won't be able to effectively
many people bench-press 100lbs as their workout...
Just providing perspective.
IronFist
good rebuttle....Quote:
Originally posted by AndyM
Nope!
"Man armed only with catapult should not hide in desert!"
weight training thing - meh, still try a 100lb bar... u won't be able to use it.
No. The weapon you are talking about had a longer blade and shorter handle than a Kwan Dao. It was used to cut horses' legs.
The Kwan Dao was use from horse back. Actually, I has seen Kwan Dao forms where a part of the form is acting like you are on horse back.
Yo dude, dont be like saying we dont know bout weapons.
I just didnt feel like saying but my opinion:
1) There are/were 100 lbs Kwan Daos.
2) They were not used in combat.
3) The heavy/super heavy weapons were cerimonial/display only OR maybe used for only as kind of advanced solo training.
4) Using a 100 lbs Kwan Dao on battle is probably a legend.
btw, when mentioned the Z-Sword we were talking about Dragon Ball Z :D
heh, thought u were referring to the german sword
anywayz though, even for solo training that is overboard
ANVILS weigh 100lbs.
btw, check out this sites by Thomas Chen. He knows a lot about chinese swords and posts on swordforum and sometimes here too.
http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/
http://chinese-armour.freewebspace.com/
By the way, zwei still means two, not three.
IronFist
We will never really know if Kwan's weapon was 100lbs. or not. We can't prove that he did, but we can't really prove that he didn't either. We will never really know if others had a similar ability.
Anyone that has ever really used a kwan do knows that it is a center weight point held weapon. It is not held by its end. It is not a sword in the traditional sense. Speed in use is determined by how well balanced the lance is.
We can guess, we can theorize, but it doesn't amount to a hill of beans. The past is the past. I for one will not be so arrogant as to pass judgement on something like this as if I am somehow kwans equal. None of us are, not even remotely. I'm not going to judge his strength by my weakness'.
My kwan do is only 25 lbs. In my hands it is not clumsy or slow. I doubt it was in his.
SifuAbel,
Sounds like you have the heaviest Kwandao on KFO. Can you do a form with it?
Interesting point about the balance point being in the center. I can't do my northern staff forms with an extremely heavy pole, such as a steel bar. The balance point is in the middle. But in those forms the 2 hands come together at one end to swing the staff around.
Now you have got me wondering if I could make a tapered bar and do those staff forms.
Do you know anything about that?
Braden--Yeah, I think so too. I was asking the same questions when I heard about it.
I also think that there is much to be said for for the interbreeding thing. I've met some people I'd consider throwbacks, myself.
SifuAbel- A good weapon is balanced--that is true--but you still run into what amount to rotational inertia problems (it takes less effort to stop a spinning tennis ball than a spinning bowling ball). I guess what I'm asking is this--you have a heavy Kwan--but could you really use it in battle?
I have no problem with the use of such an object for forms or as ceremonial displays, but the use of it as a battle weapon seems a bit beyond even exceptional human limits.
The Kwan Do as a weapon of todays classical weapons practitioner is about 20 lbs. The wu shu Kwan Do's are about 5 lbs.
The one I learned with was about 20 lbs and the flow is pretty quick. Don't forget that the weapon produces momentum of it's own once the weight of it is in motion. The user at times is only guiding the weapon and using it's tail weight against it's head weight to stop it.
One of my classmates once bought a combat Kwan Do out west and it was heavy duty. Almost 40lbs and what a wicked workout doing the Kwan Do set from our school.
Personally, I don't think 100 lbs is that big of a deal. From atop a horse you could lay it across the saddle and ride through the battle. Anyone who didn't duck... well, that would be the end of the day for them.
To weild it on the ground would take a lot of strength, but if the weapon was well balanced, once it is in motion, the effort required to redirect the motion is considerably less than the effort to start the weapon in motion.
peace
Can I do a form with it? Hee hee. I've won major tournaments with it. I used to present my kwan do to the judges just so they feel the weight. After which they ask how I can move it so fast.
The inertia in the form is countered by various types of bracing against the body.
It's obvious KL has used a kwan do. You're absolutely right about carrying the inertia over to the next move.
As KL mentioned, a hundred pounds moving at 25 MPH on a horse doesn't need much more coaxing. Just like other horse back lances it was only meant for the one or two contacts in passing.
As far as battle is concerned, this weapon is a cleaver not a slicer. Not much can get in the way of this weapon and hope to stop it. Once it does hit a body alot of the force is spent. Also the other end was used as a spear it. So more of the fast block and poke was done with the other end, with the blade weight at the base. The blade was meant for broad cutting.