:eek:
dawood
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:eek:
dawood
So these got qi girls then? I wonder where they've gone.
Can't think why they're not still here conversing.
On a complete tangent, if nothing else in the hope that this thread doesn't get deleted, I have a question.
The other day I came across this dude in a market. He was selling various things preserved in clear resin, mostly insects and general bugarama. His particular specialty was redback spiders. The redback is the most (second most?) deadly spider known to man, resident of Australia. There haven't been any deaths here from them since the 50's, but they're still nasty buggers.
Anyway, I was rather perturbed at the whole trapping of life in resin idea and what it did for the perception of nature in general. He maintained that he did it mainly for schools and museums, etc. in the name of science. The commercial side just helped him to keep his business running. He also said that they actually breed redbacks themselves, specifically for the purpose of resin encasement. I couldn't decide whether I found this more or less disturbing!
Your thoughts?
We breed animals for food. Not much difference really.
Enormous difference. We breed for food in order to survive. We are an omniverous race and need meat as well vegies (watch all the vegetarians jump all over that one!)
The spiders in resin thing is purely for aesthetics. It's like wearing fur. The dude reckoned that no matter how many pictures you saw, people wanted to see the real thing. His way means they can do that without disrupting the creatures natural environment. Sounds like rationalisation to me.
I come at the issue from a different angle. Basically, I think the more complex your neurology is, the more deserving of compassion you are. So, I don't really worry about buggy cruelty. I avoid mammal meat, but am not so worried about birds. Fish still less. Invertebrates still less. Plants least of all.
I'm more worried about these nasty spidies getting out and going all kudzu/starling/northern snakehead on us. Unless his spider farm is in australia, in which case I'm worried most about his instinct for self-preservation.
and allow me to commend you on the use of the word "bugarama" rather than "buggery.";)
CSN. Thank you. I actually went back and changed it from buggery to buggarama, as I knew where it would lead otherwise. Of course, you drawing attention to it that way may have nullified all my forethought!
As for your take on the whole bug thing, you seem to make a value judgment based on what little we know of a nervous system. You don't consider all life sacred then?
Obviously. I'm setting up a trap for you, so I may as well come straight out with it.
Octopus. Simple nervous system. Cephalopod life form. Therefore fairly low on your level of respect, however, scientific study has proven that Octopii have an intelligence level similar to that of the average dog.
What do you think of that, value judgment man?
How do you feel about stuffed animals in museums then?
Of course I consider all life sacred. But a guy's gotta eat.
Heck, Catholics consider Jesus not only sacred but God Himself, and don't seem to mind chowing down on his meat and guzzling his blood.
Or put another way, I'm one of them squishy western Scientific Taoists, and all life is one and the same and the Lion King and all that sh!t. So, the best we can do is to accept and embrace our own suffering and endeavor not to cause to much in others (oops! I let a little bit of squishy western Buddhism in there.) My own prejudices place the smarter critters above the dumber ones.
As for octopi, I've heard some folks say that they're smart, but if memory serves, the best they've got to go on is they can open jars. I think that's more a function of their anatomy than their brains problem solving capabilities, and they're too delicious for me to go off and try to find out if I'm wrong. Because I'm a hypocrite, and agree with the poet Ikkyu. (Whom you may remember me quoting before)
A Meal of Fresh Octopus
A lot of arms, just like Kannon the Goddess;
Sacrificed for me, garnished with citron, I revere it so!
The taste of the sea, just divine!
Sorry Buddha, this is another precept I cannot keep.
Mmmm...octopus!
Who me? It's a bit different. In the old days they were hunted, but this is usually controlled now by conservation laws. Specimens that have died naturally are a different kettle of fish.Quote:
Originally posted by joedoe
How do you feel about stuffed animals in museums then?
However, besides all that, this guy mass produces these spiders for a commercial market, so again, the comparison is flawed.
Quote:
Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
Of course I consider all life sacred. But a guy's gotta eat.
Heck, Catholics consider Jesus not only sacred but God Himself, and don't seem to mind chowing down on his meat and guzzling his blood.
Or put another way, I'm one of them squishy western Scientific Taoists, and all life is one and the same and the Lion King and all that sh!t. So, the best we can do is to accept and embrace our own suffering and endeavor not to cause to much in others (oops! I let a little bit of squishy western Buddhism in there.) My own prejudices place the smarter critters above the dumber ones.
As for octopi, I've heard some folks say that they're smart, but if memory serves, the best they've got to go on is they can open jars. I think that's more a function of their anatomy than their brains problem solving capabilities, and they're too delicious for me to go off and try to find out if I'm wrong. Because I'm a hypocrite, and agree with the poet Ikkyu. (Whom you may remember me quoting before)
A Meal of Fresh Octopus
A lot of arms, just like Kannon the Goddess;
Sacrificed for me, garnished with citron, I revere it so!
The taste of the sea, just divine!
Sorry Buddha, this is another precept I cannot keep.
Mmmm...octopus!
Aha. So you're a hypocrite and you choose to live in ignorance. So there's really no point in me discussing this with you!
I, too, love octopus and struggle with the concept. Also with pork. Mmmmmmbacon... but pigs are really quite intelligent beings.
The difference between you and me, Chang, is that I worry about these things and you choose not to. We're not so different other than that.
A friend of mine once said, when we were discussing the same thing, "Well, the pig may be an intelligent creature, but it ain't bright enough to figure out a way to stop us from killing and eating it. So what are you worried about."
It may not surprise you to know that this friend is American and a great proponent of Dubya. We have very heated exchanges.
Well, what's your worry going to get you? You still have to eat. You can go veggie, but we have no way of knowing for certain that plants don't have some kind of inconcievable (to our frail animal consciousnesses) intellect and psychic civilization. So that's no guarantee that you're not a contemptible murderer either.
The best evidence of my senses tells me that we are in and of this world, and no matter what we do will never escape it, not even in death. We should, of course, try to preserve and improve the world as best we can and I do that (sometimes) but we can't know all the consequences of our actions, or even or our inaction. Some things are fundamentally unknowable, and one of those is the future. Since morality and ethics are bound inextricably with the concepts of cause and effect, and since Shroedinger Heisenberg and the rest of those guys have shown that effects cannot be perfectly correlated with cause, we are left with only our socialization and instincts to guide us about what is right. But as long ago as Plato it was known that our senses can be fooled and that the world we see (and act upon) cannot be known to any conclusive degree.
And so I leave the bacon alone, and have octopus when I can afford it, because that's my best guess. And it's not much better or worse than yours, because despite your slander about hypocrisy and ignorance we're in the same cave staring at flickering shadowplays.
Uh, doing kungfu and ordering supplies from www.martialartsmart.com:D
Very good. I like the way you brought in the cave/shadow thing to remind us that these ideas are certainly not new!
However, back to the original idea, do you think mass producing life for aesthetic commercial gain (i.e. the redback in resin dude) fits in any way within the confines of morality we've outlined between us? And, let's be honest, we both have a pretty loose moral standing on this already.
I'll be interested to see what eulerfan has to say on this, assuming all the talk of pork flaps hasn't scared her off.
Oh yeah, er... buy this.
I've already said it doesn't bother me much.
I mean, it's not so different from using wood for floors and bookshelves in my view. Or harvesting cotton to make canvas so I can paint on it. Or eating farm raised catfish when tofu would be just as nutritious.
I consider all life a potential sandwich. And that includes everyone who's posted on this thread, in a pinch.Quote:
Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
Of course I consider all life sacred.