Fact and the path of human nature..
Thank you gentlemen for the quality discussion. I have very little to contribute, however much to learn.
My interest in Shaolin temples is two fold, as a practitioner in general, and as a Pak Mei student in detail.
The alleged conflict between a Taoist Pak Mei and Buddhist Shaolin has led to many remarkable legends, fairytails and rumors. Everyone tells a different story. Firstly, I should say, I personally am not sold on the idea that a "Pak Mei" ever existed. More that he was an Iconographic figure...
Many will refute the picture in the HB Un book as being Pak Mei.
When Buddism came to China, one can only assume there was conflict with the established religions of Taoism and Confucism. Was it ideological, physical or political, who knows?
I have learned that the Taoists and Buddists have since found common ground, and many cross between temples and philosophys. This is obvious to any student of either.
The legend of Pak Mei takes place with the coming of the Manchu and the fall of the Ming dynasty, in the mid 1700's I believe.
This temple in the south, Fujian Shaolin or Gau Lin Temple, is this the one currently in ruins that has been unearthed, or a currently standing one?
There is also talk of one in Canton...
The legend I know is, one south destroyed, moved north, then moved south again...
Thanks again guys for the time and effort.
Yuan Fen & Shi Bok Se Teung
YF: Nice post. Here are some thoughts I'd like to add to your points.
1,2. Government interest in religion, especially in PRC is always a factor, but Buddhism, especially Chan, doesn't require government support. It doesn't even require temples. As long as the three treasures exist, Buddhism thrives - and two of those treasures are fairly constant (but I guess I can't be a good Buddhist and say permanent now, can I?)
3. I was on retreat at the Tibetan monastery in Bodh Gaya. I didn't find any evidence of young forest symbology. Can you clarify this?
4. You might take a look at our old thread "what if Bodhidharma's kungfu was fake". It's a back a few pages in the archives and many of us engaged some of the Bodhidharma mythology.
The connection to Indian martial arts and Yoga has always been interesting, but had to really validify. I was doing some research in India in '97 on this - studying Yoga and arts like Kalliripayattu to try and make a connection, but it was pretty sketchy.
The archery issue is one that always confused me. Archery figures so prominently in Indian myth - ie. Mahabharata, or even young Siddharta, and Chinese archery is well reserched, so why didn't it make it into Kungfu? In Japan, Kyudo is a huge Zen practice, but in China archery is not traditionally part of Chan. It's really quite a riddle when you think about it.
5. Do you have a citation for Nationals lobbing shells into Shaolin?
6,7,8. There are two major considerations when looking at Chan. Both relate to the precedence of Taoism. Many Taoists believed that Buddhism was actually Laozi's teachings returning from the west, since that's the direction he was heading when he left and wrote Daodejing. There was a rejection of "foreign" philosphies, so early Chan was considered to have it's roots in Taoism. Also many of the Buddhist terms had no meaning, so they were either phoneticized from the sanskrit (ie. TaMo) or mapped on to previous Taoist terms. anything that passes through China picks up a Chinese smell - just look at what Qingdao did to German brewing...
SBST: Ancient temples are always rebuilt. Old things need repair, not just from the ravages of the elements, but also, often moreso, the ravages of man. This is not ground for skepticism on authenticity.
Shaolin is certainly tourist, but the religious practice is still quite vital there - you just need to know where to look. Get thee to a nunnery - Shaolin's nunnery and Yongtai still uphold the teachings very well. And there are other surrounding temples where it's going on.
Shaolin is a flagship, a figurehead for Chan and kungfu. Just as a president should be judged on his cabinet, Shaolin should be judged on its surrounding temples and affiliates. But then again, Chan and judgement, make no distinction, eh?
Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com
Hi Gene: thanks for your post.
Different personal chemistries. My curiosities are in attempts to solve intellectual puzzles.
Others take notes and citations but cant tell a puzzle or an idea if they see one.So I dont take notes and citations till I get involved in pleasing the scholarly priests and gate keepers.. But over time when neededI can dig up things again. very sloppy info retrieval system. The forest symbolism for meditaion is very old in India and predates Sakyamuni. But there was a famous forest in his time(sal trees possibly?)
near a place where he preached
and he referred in one of his sermons on retaining the freshness of vision like the young forest in spite of the changes of the seasons.The pre Buddhist ideal (Drona in the Mahabharata) of
a wise man is a combination of internal power and mastery of yoga and self defense- hand(mudras) and
weapons(astra). Buddhism did careful surgery with Hindu symbolism.Kept some. threw awy some, sublimated others- kali becomes Tara.BTW Kali's khera provides the link to the Gurkha kukhri. Therefore except for the yoga,breath,archery(focus)
the mudras and bandhs-18 hands of lohan you are left with the monks staff and possibly the trident.The monks staff and the archery is alive in Ladakh. The lion dance,the associated 108 stops.other lion symbolism are also Buddhist in origin. I am sure you know about the Tibetan snow lion dance.Buddhists from my area (Bengal)playeda big role in early Tibetan Buddhism and the transmission of Hinayana to Sri Lanka. In a way the Sri Lankan conflict involves old old old migrants from bengal versus newer Tamil migrants.
The Brits. devastated Indian martial arts. But the trained eye can see the remnants- not just in kalaripayattu.The dim mak ideas were well known- there is a whole old literature-the marma shastras-
the science of the strike points. War elephants were controlled through poking specific points.
There are two additional problems in understanding all this- the westernised Indian bourgeoisie dont know their own history and Indians were not as good as Chinese in record keeping. The blending of meditation. breath control. knowledge of the spinal alignments, chakras( dan tiens). MARTIAL gathering of prana/chi has its now truncated roots in India.
Many Taoists would put their own overlay on Buddhist things... thus the parallel in chi circulation...clockwise or anti clockwise in the stomach area- take your pick. But the young forest,
the lotus and the perennial plum flower may yet survive... lots of folks will peace for people of their own faith. The dharma wills it for all. the Sangha may be in trouble but hey... last week
almost 50,000 low caste Hindus took tonsure in delhi and became Buddhists. Finis rather than rattle on. Best-Joy
PS You may or may not have seen my old piece in IKF
about December 1990; 108 steps- the Sino-indian Connection in the martial arts.It touches a bit on the Bodhi dharma.
www.azwingchun.com
puzzles, leaders & religion
YF: Sure solving intellectual puzzles is fun, but solving them with hearsay is unsatisfactory. Yet, I certainly empathize with a sloppy retrieval system - my library has been a shambles since I moved and that was 2 years ago. I was curious to clarify your statements since you raised some interesting points.
The forest symbolism - do you mean the three trees of buddhism? Banyan, for Buddha's birth, bodhi for his enlightement, and something else for his death - alas, there is my sloppy retrieval system of memory. You know, here's some trivia, there is a cutting of that death tree at Yongtai nunnery next to Shaolin. Allegedly that was the first Buddhist nunnery condoned by the emperor and the only cutting of that tree in China (but then they also claim a relic of Buddha, which I don't beleive yet.) I'm still not sure how this fits into "young forest". I'll have to look up that dhamra talk, was it the first one at Deer Park?
Many of the things you mention seem more parallel to me than linear. Surely, qi and prana are similar, but I feel it is an oversimplification to say they are connected. You can't map meridians on chakras and nadis successfully. things like Kali>Chenrizig>Tara or Avalokiteshavara>Kuanyin>Kannon are linear and easy to validify. But the 108, now there's a big chicken & egg problem. My daughter's name is Tara by the way, so this strikes close to my heart :)
Now I'm not sure about the Indian bourgeoisie, but the scant Indian research always seemed much more fruitful than the Chinese. It is an extremely scholarly culture. The very concept that the Mahabharata was an oral tradition for centuries, and yet little deviation was seen across even to modern day, is astounding. In contrast, China was where we developed the slang "chinese whispers." I find this so evident in CMA.
I enjoy your writing Joy (loved your last submission to us in NOV/DEC 2001, BTW) but I probably don't have that old IKF. Could you send me a copy via email. I would prefer to read your unedited version
:)
r (s) et.al. As for gov't subterfuge, sometimes I think this is a separation of church and state issue we have in the US. It can be very positive. Since we are discussing India & Buddhism, think of Ashoka.
Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com
Thanks Gene for a nice note and post:
A partial reply:
I have one of those machines for emailing documents but without number 2 son I am lost on how to use it. I will probably send you a xerox copy of the IKF article on 108.The issue of the chicken or the egg should disappear once you read it.There is not only the number theory, the myths
and rituals related to the Indian side but ancient astronomy as well.
There was once near Loyang a whole colony of Indian astronomers(Needham: Science and Civilization in China)) in order to share with the Chinese their calculations of eclipses-specailly what in babylon came to be known as the saros cycle. The prana/chi analogy right now is linear but the yoga breath/mind control in the Buddhist transmission is more direct.
The Young Forest symbolism really has to do with a
neaby forest referred to in one of Siddhartha's sermons. My memory fails me right now. It is not just the general banyan tree analogy.
Asokha really applied religious freedom and tolerance in his time to all the many diverse religions and sects around in his time...and tolerance for cultural and linguistic diversity
as well.You know that Asokha's world extended into Afghanistan as well.
Tara is a beautiful name, Best wishes for your daughter. You know I am sure that Boddhidharma's teacher's name was Prajna-Tara. Best, Joy