Working on digging up a Da Luohan translation for Shi De Yangs dvd as well!
Amituofo
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Working on digging up a Da Luohan translation for Shi De Yangs dvd as well!
Amituofo
you cannot say Miaoxing's luohan has been the holy grail. in fact, Miaoxing, like Degen, Sufa, and many others, had an extensive prior knowledge of folk martial arts before getting into Shaolin. these people have usually brought loads of ugly, irrelevant peasant materials with themselves into the temple and have kept teaching them under the name of the Shaolin temple kung fu. so it's possible that what Miaoxing or even his master Henglin taught at the temple could have been the ugly Dengfeng version of luohan quan.
Deyang's, Deyong's, and Encyclopedia's luohan 18 hands are the same. except the encyclopedia moves the last elbow strike to the end.
no big deal. all sources of Shaolin are so messed up.
comparison of Deyang, Deyong, and Encyclopedia's luohan 18 hands:
Attachment 10866
Deyang's forms are good, but his info could be flat wrong:Quote:
I will always take De Yang as a credible source however, so my initial goal was to make sense of the 18 hands he speaks of in his dvd, in terms of historical presence and structural integrity.
some examples:
- in his tong bi quan vids he says tong bi tactic is to faint to a direction and attack another, while this is guandong quan tactic, tong bi doesn't use fainting.
- in his luohan 18 hands vid he talks about the mi zong forms being the core of Shaolin, while those forms are irrelevant forms from another region, not even from Shaolin!
- in his mi zong vids (and as i said those mi zong forms are not related to Shaolin), he talks about Huo Yuanjia as a master of mi zong quan, while that mi zong quan is something totally different. Huo Yuanjia's mi zong quan, also called Yan Qing quan is a northern long-fist style, something totally different. these are just totally different styles with the same name, which is a source of much confusion about Chinese martial arts. Deyang doesn't have a clue what he's talking about here; he's confused two different styles.
so, get Deyang's info with a rather big grain of salt. if anything, his information is not accurate at all.
no. luohan 18 hands has evolved over time. how much? we don't know.
luohan 18 hands has been extensively reviewed in the Ming dynasty. they increased it into 18 forms. however, in the latter half of the Qing dynasty, Shaolin monks did a great attempt to purify Shaolin syllabus by cherry picking the bests and throwing away redundancy off the Shaolin system. out of several hundreds of barehand forms, they picked a hundred, and then just 18. this is when most those luohan 18 hands forms couldn't survive. Encyclopedia lists 8, but just one or a couple survived in the temple. we don't know what exactly they did, they just give us these as Shaolin luohan 18 hands.
Deyang's is the 1st form of the Encyclopedia, and this is the 8th form, the same that is usually done by Dejian, Shi Yan Ao and others. this is actually a bigger frame of the 1st form. like a small & big pair.Quote:
oh oh oh, stop, stop!
there's originally 2 forms, small luohan and this jin tong xiao luohan, whatever you call it, big luohan or anything. it is not a modern, abridged, mumbled jumbled version of any supposed original longer form with several yi lu, er lu, san lu, etc., parts and so and so.
this is simple, Shaolin forms are simple. as simple as small and big hong quan. all this complication and confusion comes from peasants around, all trying to come up with their own materials, so this craze results in making the 2nd, 3rd, up to even 13 forms of big hong quan, which if you compare, don't add anything to the original 1 form! this same has happened to luohan quan as well. just 2 simple forms, copied and copied and copied over and over again by the crazy folks who never saw an actual combat in whole their lives to build up their own martial arts, adding confusion over confusion.
you remember, i said Degen taught at least 4 different versions of luohan quan to different people! this is more like a practiced joke!
i would recommend stay away from it, like the plague!
throw that DVD into a trash bin.
this version of da luohan (jin tong luohan), which is in Deqian's encyclopedia and is done by Deyang and many others, is a bad version. this has been taught in Dengfeng by hero Li (Li Gensheng) and others. usually you see the first 2 lus (same as Zhang Shijie and others) and everyone has a different 3rd lu for it. anyhow, it is actually empty of the original key luohan postures and doesn't even look like luohan quan. furthermore, as they always do, they've broken it into yi lu, er lu, to add a 3rd section (san lu). like these people are obsessed with yi lu, er lu, san lu, etc. you give them any form, they add a 3rd section to it! and may even increase it to 18 foolish forms!
don't mistake this crooked form for original Shaolin luohan quan.
notice that for jin tong xiao luohan there is 1 poplular video, that of Xingsen, from Liu Zhenhai's series.
Dejun and Deci also do it, but their form has an additional (say 3rd) part at the end.
i'll remove that part from their videos and reupload them again, to remove this confusion.
thanks for clearing that up and adding to the understanding. the trust I have in Shi De Yang goes further than the dvds and history he gives in them. lol
I have to admire your zeal about the all the roads and confusion and I wish I could talk to you personally to get all of my questions to you.
You did clear up the 18 Luohan hands question. I've only learned two ways to practice it, the main one is like the video you posted up there by Shi Yan Ti, just with a different Shen fa, the other is pretty much the same, I have only seen one video of it by Shi Yan Lu a long time ago. Shi De Yangs version in his dvds still peaks my interest as to why he chose that particular frame to present.
as far as Da Luohan, I've seen too many versions to settle on one. What I have learned to practice is so called JinTongXiaoLuoan, yet I learned it named Da Luohan. Its different from Da Luohan Shi De Cheng teaches, which is why I looked into the version Shi De Yang teaches, because they appeared similar. Then there is a video I saw with some one practicing what they call JinGang Quan/Da Luohan and they are wearing all white, and it what they play is much longer than any other frames I've seen of any road called "Big Arhat", in fact Im almost sure that video is some where in the early pages of this thread.
I'll look for it.
What is puzzling is all the confusion around Da Luohan, and Luohan boxing in general, when Luohan Quan is Shaolin's signature. Seems like its should be more comprehensive to identify which is which. Like Luohan Hu Shen Chui, I learn to practice named Nei Tong Bi Quan first. There's also frames of Gulun style Luohan chui, and JinGang Quan that are in the same area of study.
From what I understand however, in terms of Songshan Shaolin Luohan Quan, beyond the books, dvds, and folk lore, when dealing with structure and application, Hong Boxing, Tong Bi boxing, Luohan Boxing, JinGang Boxing, even ZhaoYangQuan, and possibly Pao Quan, are under the same umbrella. Everything else it outside.
When I learned what few frames I know, before youtube, and all the dvds, I also looked at Songshan Shaolin the same way, there was the 5 animals which is what I wanted to learn, tanglanq quan, etc taizu chang quan, of course chang hu xiyimen, qixing quan etc..... then theres the group I named first, which stood out and stood alone to me
recently I spent a little over a month only practicing Luohan Quan and researching looking for links to these particular groups of forms,
Im thankful for the guidance
Amituofo
you're welcome. let's continue.
his info mostly comes from what taught in his lineage by his masters. when it comes to Shaolin, even the lineages could be wrong. takes great logic and research to find out, if possible at all.Quote:
the trust I have in Shi De Yang goes further than the dvds and history he gives in them.
confusion goes far and wide, much more than that. i hope i can take time and clear some flat, widespread misunderstandings/misconceptions in this forum.Quote:
lol I have to admire your zeal about the all the roads and confusion and I wish I could talk to you personally to get all of my questions to you.
Dejian's, Yanti's, and Yanlu's forms are the same, the bigger one, just each of them performs it with a different shenfa. these Wugulun people usually screw shenfa so badly it goes beyond recognition!Quote:
You did clear up the 18 Luohan hands question. I've only learned two ways to practice it, the main one is like the video you posted up there by Shi Yan Ti, just with a different Shen fa, the other is pretty much the same, I have only seen one video of it by Shi Yan Lu a long time ago.
it's not a version of the same, it's another form.Quote:
Shi De Yangs version in his dvds still peaks my interest as to why he chose that particular frame to present.
he hasn't chosen, it's what taught in his lineage. of luohan 18 hands, Suxi's (Deyang's) lineage teach this one, also called xiao si hui or any name. in Wugulun lineage (Dejian and others) they have the bigger one. they're similar, however.
da luohan is just 1 identity. too many versions come from astray people messing around with the original or with other people so-called versions, adding confusion to confusion.
well, as already said, the Dengfeng (wicked) version of da luohan (which as also said, is a non-luohan-ized version of jintongxiaoluohan), has 3 parts. Decheng shows 1 part. Deyang shows the 3 parts. Deqian also shows the 3 parts in the encyclopedia. Deyang's 3rd part is a bit shorter than Deqian's.Quote:
What I have learned to practice is so called JinTongXiaoLuoan, yet I learned it named Da Luohan. Its different from Da Luohan Shi De Cheng teaches, which is why I looked into the version Shi De Yang teaches, because they appeared similar.
that white-robe guy you say (his name's Zhang Shijie), shows 2 parts of Dengfeng da luohan. his version comes from Shi Degen and looks a bit nicer. Degen himself has a book which shows all 3 sections, with a brand new 3rd section.Quote:
Then there is a video I saw with some one practicing what they call JinGang Quan/Da Luohan and they are wearing all white, and it what they play is much longer than any other frames I've seen of any road called "Big Arhat", in fact Im almost sure that video is some where in the early pages of this thread.
I'll look for it.
we already talked and said much about Dengfeng people breaking and adding 3rd sections to forms, a few things should be noted here:
1. such 3rd parts have been added not only to da luohan, but to big pao ang tong bi quan as well, in wicked attempts to make them 3 parts.
2. not all people's 3rd sections are the same. though all people do the same about the first 2 sections of the forms (which are actually the original frame if the form), they show different 3rd sections.
3. these 3rd sections have poor technical content. either for their daluohan, big pao, and big tong bi quan, they've added useless techniques, like they do an awkward 3 consecutive punches in them, they face each direction and do 3 stupid consecutive punches on just 1 leg (T stance)!!! couldn't have been worse!
anyway, don't matter. these are not original Shaolin.
those are random fake names, it's just tong bi quan.
those luohan forms, other than small and big, all come from the numerous 18-luohan styles made by all those peasant families. any family has made a random luohan quan for themselves. Degen had learned a big bag of these forms.
Shoalin doesn't have a jingang quan itself. the same here, these jingang quans are also random forms from random sources.
there are several jingang quans:
1. Deqian's encyclopedia also has a whole section on a jingang quan with 10 forms or so, he has a DVD on one of them. it's actually a random long-fist style brought by lay monk Sufa, who like Degen had an interest in collecting random forms from here and there and teach them as Shaolin. not related to Shaolin.
2. the first jingang form you mentioned above, done by Zhang Shijie, it's 2nd form is done by Pan Shuangxi. it comes from Shi Degen, another monk who taught lots of unrelated forms. this a combination of Shaolin and Baji quan. has more forms, and they call it jingang baji quan. not related to Shaolin.
3. Wugulun family are lay monks or folk people, which also have a long history of rebranding irrelevant forms as Shaolin. they have lots of materials that are not related to the temple. many of them are even recent made-ups. among these are several forms with the word jingang in the names, which could have come from any source.
in Dengfeng, the villages around Shaolin, there are many jingang-named forms, the same way there are many random luohan-named forms. most, maybe all, are peasant made-ups. it looks a waste of time trying to take them all into consideration.
much for today,
about the main styles, animal styles, etc., that you've mentioned, let's talk these later, maybe tomorrow.
Got it, so by titlel of small and big
this is classical Xiao Luohan:
Shi De Yangs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0F8XWcSTlSE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJhNa_CGx_E
https://youtu.be/81eVFkvVrPU
Shi De Yang seems to teach the same frame with different variations and shen fa.
and for Da Luohan.....
this is classical Da Luohan by Shi De Jun: https://youtu.be/qCguyDM1X1o
Shi De Cheng's: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmJXSJePWQs which is similar to Shi De Juns and the 1st part of a bigger frame. (if I'm reading correctly) and is taught in its entirety by Shi De Qian.
Shi De Yang's: https://youtu.be/0F8XWcSTlSE which is a variation of Shi De Qian's full 3 sections.
So in terms of Luohan Quan, what I have learned is just Xiao Luohan, and Da Luohan (the longer version of Shi De Jun's video) with the added 3rd section for Wushu I suppose?
Then I'm not that far from home at all. What's starting to become more apparent is that, one would have to go to the source and study for a while to get solid information on the lineage of Luohan Quan. and still One has to talk to worthy sources because many variations are taught at the temple and in denfeng. So its a long learning journey.
to clear some things up on my side, I always trust and respect the structural integrity of Shi De Yangs curriculum. and when I saw him, a lot of his movements reminded me of my first teacher, so he stood out to me as I understood his shen fa, transitional postures, steps etc....
Shi De Cheng and Shi De Jian as well, as I have had experience with their students which proves their movements translate the core essence of the taolu they learned.
and Shi De Jun to an extent, at least for taolu I can relate to like Da Luohan.
Shi De Yangs structural integrity stands true, regardless of the story lines or gaps in dvd classes (of which I personally think are obscured purposely for the 'outside' audience) ,
what counts with taolu is 1. do they work in practice? meaning will they build the CORRECT foundation and fluidity if trained repeatedly.... 2. do they work in application? if one attempts to extract and apply combat technique from Taolu, are they designed and TAUGHT correctly so that the combat information is intact and transmitted effectively to the student....
Amituofo
Shi DeCheng's is also the DengFeng version. DeCheng shows 1 part, Shi DeQi (YouTube) and Zhang Shijie show 2 parts, DeYang and encyclopedia show 3 parts.
you can identify this DengFeng version by that it doesn't begin with the iconic "luohan salutes Buddha" posture.
luohan shiba shou, hong quan, qixing/chang hu xinyi, pao quan, tong bi quan, guandong quan, mei hua quan, zhaoyang quan, luohan quan, chang quan are shaolin.
fanzi quan is NOT shaolin, it's a northern style and doesn't have anything to do with Shaolin, also baji quan, tong bei quan, tanglang quan, eagle style, 5 animal style, wuxing bafa, monkey style, mi zong quan, yang qing quan, ditang quan, lian huan quan, babu lianhuan quan, chuji chang quan, and maaaaaany others are not Shaolin!
go here:
Playlist: Shaolin Kung Fu combat styles (YouTube)
first read the description (click on SHOW MORE),
then open each video, and click on SHOW MORE below each video to see the description. there's a history description below each video.
for example, for pao quan it is:
Quote:
- history:
Tang dynasty (618-907):
after a war in 621 AD, Shaolin monks performed a pao chui (power style) in an exhibition in presence of the first emperor of the dynasty.
Song dynasty (960-1279):
pao quan was first officially compiled in the first years of the Song dynasty (960s AD) under the supervision of chief monk Fuju (福居).
Yuan dynasty (1279-1368):
in the late years of the dynasty, monk Jinnaluo (紧那罗) improved this pao quan form. this was the 'small pao quan'.
Qing dynasty (1644-1912):
in the mid years of the dynasty, the early 1800s, monk Zhanju (湛举) combined pao quan techniques into a base of small and big hong quan, tong bi quan, luohan quan, and some other materials to create the 'big pao quan'. specially, there was a set called Shaolin xinyi ba, which is still widely practiced in Dengfeng area around Shaolin temple. this set imitates daily and farming activities by combining standing and small-frame stances with the pounding moves of the arms and fists, which use whole the body to generate explosive power. Zhanju combined xinyi ba moves into the small and big pao quan and perfected them.
video of what?
if you want the original form of da luohan (jintong luohan), yes there are many videos. i edited DeJun's video and cut the additional section off of it, so it's now actually the original form (watch it on YouTube).
i'm going to correct De Ci's video as well. it's more accurate and with more detail than DeJun's form.
also Shi XingSen has a video which is not as accurate and detailed,
and many clips are linked in this thread.
no no, i said a thousand times, DeQian's encyclopedia shows the DengFeng version.
thanks so much man! starting to understand the confusion is really just preference. meaning people's perspective and opinion.
Shaolin's native curriculum is not hard to locate or translate as long as your have proper guidance. I'm thankful for my Sifu being rooted and giving me the right seeds to nourish at a time when I had no clue about where to start, and honestly, when I went hunting for a school back then, I was looking for the stuff I saw in film and wushu shows.
fast forward to nowadays, you can see a bajillion versions of a taolu you were taught, just on youtube alone, not to mention other platforms.
the shen fa changes with the lineage of masters somewhat, yet the core Shaolin movement holds true to a certain form and essence of expression and application. so essentially, the only difference in any variation of Luohan Quan, will happen when someone changes the actual sequence order, or inserts/removes specific movements, or scrambles patterns beyond translation.
with perfect synchronicity, and due to the forced seclusion of quarantine, I was reunited with a brother in arms from high school via facebook who trained with my first sifu a few years longer than me, and we got into some video exchanges naturally. seeing the Luohan Quan and Da Hong Quan specifically.
structural integrity is in tact, and the flow and rhythm of Shaolin Quan is still rooted in its essence. slowing down or speeding up the taolu during performance should still give the same resonance, and translate the same poem.
There is still intrigue as to when and why all the implants of various fighting styles, specifically animal styles, and xingyi, also any older taoist influence, on Songshan Shaolin. thats a personal research journey I will have to take on my own lol, and a tedious one.
in practice I try not to spread myself too thin, so I really focus on Hong quan and Luohan Quan, which are more than enough lol, still , I like the stories and lore around how certain styles came about, and how they got to the temple, so I greatly appreciate the information you share!
Amituofo
on another note about Mizong Quan, I always thought what Shi De Yang was speaking on was more of "secret boxing" , in terms of 'lost-track' , that would not be the case. mi-zong is used in many schools to reference a taolu (road) that is 'hidden' or 'secret' within the schools curriculum. So Mizong Quan at Songshan is just a hidden style not linked, directly or openly, to any other road, and whose applications might not be shared to outsiders.
When Shi De Yang references Huo Yuan Jia in the dvd commentary, I highly doubt he's being literal in the sense that its the SAME road, for one, Shi De Yang, regardless of opinion, is a scientist of Shaolin Taolu to say the least, and to even a novice of kung fu, the naked eye can see Shi De Yang's Mizong Quan and Huo Yuan Jia's Mi Zong Quan are different.
What I think Shi De Yang is saying is that "like Huo Yuan Jia's Mizong Quan, which is a hidden/secret boxing of HIS school, Shaolin Mizong Quan is ALSO a hidden style of boxing within Shaolin, that houses core principles of real Shaolin Quan."
someone correct me if Im wrong.......anyhow I think its just Shi De Yang making a kung fu pop culture reference and correlation of terminology.
if anything let's put some respect on Shifu Shi De Yang's name. His dvd's are an outreach project to spread basic Shaolin WuGong. we know that what he teaches face to face is much more intense and layered. He's not giving mis-information in his dvds and ANY knowledge he shares openly is a PRIVILEGE to have access to for many who cant get the teachings in person. If we dont respect the teachers and lineage, then whats next? cmon man, we have to be mindful of how we word things publically, some people can misinterpret whats said about Shi De Yang and be turned away from his work, which would be shorting themselves from a wealth of great knowledge wisdom and understanding of Shaolin Gong.
as for feinting in Tong Bi quan, it depends on whos teaching it, like I said, the version I learned is called Luohan Hammers by some people, has a rounder Shen fa, and in 4 different parts of the form, going into ding bu, and coming out of xu bu, there is feinting taught in certain applications. especially with xu bu, there is leg feints in certain application, and before "dropping the hammer" in guard, going into ding bu, theres a 3 punch sequence, the second punch involves feinting, also in ma bu san chui (horse stance with 3 hammers), one of those punches is also taught as feinting , in application. different teachers share the applications in different ways. Against my better judgement, I'd be willing to make a video explaining this.
same goes for his Da Luohan quan, taught by Shi De Cheng as well. Shi De Yang has a specific method to his road, It's a great expression of the style, Shi De Jun, and Shi De Ci would say the same thing. Some things are for performance and so on, some are for fighting, some for meditative purpose, or to "move chi" in a vigorous way. Shaolin Qi Gong and Wu Gong has many layers.
Much love and respect bro, again thanks for all that you share.
Amituofo.
For the purpose of this thread, I am Going to upload Shi De Yang's version of Da Luohan for the purpose of observing it in correlation to Shi De Ci and Shi De Jun's version, and my theory on why theres a Jintong Luohan Quan AND Da Luohan Quan, along with Xiao Luohan and Luohan Shibashou, and share the aligning movements.
This is just my observation from practice, excluding the encyclopedia.
Amituofo
got a nice surprise in the mail today
Attachment 10883
after careful examination, and study/practice of what was examined, I have arrived at some sort of understanding of Luohan Quan.
Amituofo
Coincidentally, or perhaps ironically, I'm shelving my Da Luohan. I relearned it the last time my master Shi Decheng came through in a seminar and have kept it in my regimen, but haven't made any progress beyond maintenance. It's not really flowing for me so I'm letting it go for now and focusing on other material.
Love that pic :cool:
Amiuofo
It took a long while to get the steps and rhythm of Da Luohan to where there is some flow and honestly its a serious grind. Ironically, you're article with Shi De Cheng was what sparked my interest in the correct way of walking this road, the other Da Luohan I was practicing was actually JinTong Luohan Quan, this version taught by Shi De Yang and Shi De Cheng was called Lao Luohan Quan, and has only a couple variations. Its the right one though and takes a lot of drilling segment by segment. I spent months on each segment. Just to get to some fundamental fluidity.
Needless to say, at this point, between research and sweat, Im too invested in it to stop practicing it now lol....
And I still read your book and articles all the time . Such a treasure map, and reservoir of insight :)
Amituofo!
Can anyone tell me why these Shaolin forms have so many alternating 180 degree directional moves? Were they developed from urban fighting in hallways and alleys? Most the simple forms I know go through at least 90 degree increments, and the more complex ones 45 degree or 60 degree directions.
heres a walkthrough of Da Luohan I've been working on....it's still a lot to iron out here make it flow where it feels right
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZx-E0N7KQU
Amituofo
2 main reasons I've heard are military style line drills of warrior monks, and them training that way in small training halls.
....and also training space for shrinking chi. "should be able to train in the area it takes an ox to rest"
theres probably a few other reasons as well
Amitabha
The first couple pages of this thread is full of great information to start.
One thing I see in common, Da Luohan Er Lu has a few versions, where the song is just in a different order, same steps however. For example, Shi Degen's 85 postures is scattered in Zhang Shi Jie's version and Shi De Ci, Shi De Yang, Shi De Cheng, all have similar roads.
Amituofo