The Wing Chun Karate Connection

[reneritchie]

Jim is correct in that the Ming myth is likely modern, same as most martial myths. Romantic and all, but not historical.

[anerlich]

I subscribe to a mailing list run by Lloyd Irvin, a BJJ Black Belt. Today he sent me this:

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In every grappling club throughout the World there are sheep and there are tigers.

What are you? What do you want to be?

Look around your club and see if you know who the tigers are and who the sheep are.
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Training: Tigers and Sheep

Sometimes karate training can be called training as a tiger or training as a sheep. If you train as a tiger -- hard training and body conditioning -- you can always train with tigers. Other tigers will also recognize you and you can train in peace with them. They know that when two tigers really fight that one will die of injuries today and the other will die of injuries tomorrow. Both will die, so they have nothing to prove.

If you train like a sheep -- no contact and no two-man conditioning -- then you can only train with sheep. A tiger can train with tigers and he can also train with sheep. He just has to be careful not to hurt them. A sheep cannot train with tigers. Sheep see tigers as being very frightening and their conditioning, he says, will cause cancer. A sheep training with tigers will get eaten up.

Sometimes you see a sheep who sees the truth of tiger training and changes. In reality this sheep was actually a tiger in sheep's clothing waiting to come out.

Watch people training. Look at how they act and how they behave. A tiger can be like a little kitty but dangerous even though he is friendly. They are quiet and watch everything. They listen and watch. They know who they are and they have nothing to prove -- they are at peace.

Sheep, on the other hand, make all kinds of noises and demand to be heard. They run around and seem to crave attention. They are easily hurt and easily scared. They always group together for their own protection. When danger approaches they look towards the group for protection because they cannot defend themselves. They are easy prey for tigers -- whether it is one sheep or several, sheep are still sheep.

-- Ryuko Tomoyose, Uechi-ryu

[Phil Redmond]

Thanks dude.
I'm printing this out for my guys. The wording is perfect especially the last paragraph.

[AndyM]

Certainly there's a resurgence of more tactile hand skills in the UK seeming to stem from Pat McCarthy. I've come across it in Some Shotokan and Shindo Karate groups.

Tegumi drills are snippets of the sort of extrapolations that WC people so regularly practice.

[aelward]

There has been quite a bit of research into the connection between Kung Fu and Karate. There's an interesting book in Chinese called "Dong Fang Ge Dou Shu Da Guan" by Liang Minshu that has a bunch of cool diagrams and charts. Of course, I tend to take Chinese research with a grain of salt, since they always want to take credit for everything-- like the introduction of spaghetti into Italy by Marco Polo, or the founding of North America by Zheng He.

Generally, though, it seems that most Okinawan styles were influenced by Fujian styles (as many have pointed out); as opposed to the Aikijujitsu forms which were indigenous to Japan's bushi warrior class (though many Chinese say it evolved from Northern styles of Kung Fu).

Shotokan founder Gichin Funakoshi talks about the origin of the term "karate," where the "kara" was originally the same Chinese character for "tang" (a la Tang Dynasty), which denoted Chinese stuff (like "kara-age", Chinese fried chicken..mmmmm)-- later, it evolved to another "kara," the character "kong" for empty.

Funakoshi discusses two families of two Okinawan Karate that evolved from a merging of Okinawan dance and Chinese martial styles-- Shuri style and Naha style. Apparently, they did not mix that much, and from his book, he made it seemed like they were REALLY far away from each other. Imagine my surprise when I visited Okinawa this summer and found out that you could walk from Naha port to Shuri in about 10 minutes....

It seemed to be the trend at that particular time in history (1920s-1940s) for the Japanese to systemize their fighting arts-- seeing them more as a way of life than an art of fighting because of increasing efficiency of firearms ("why doesn't someone just take a gun and bang, finish it?"). So all the "jutsu" ("shu", or arts) became "do" ("dao" or roads). Jigiro Kano standardized Judo from the diverse techniques of Aikijujitsu; while Morihei Ueshiba took the same techniques and came up with Aikido. Funakoshi created a style that was later named Shotokan (after the place he taught); and So Doshin created Shorinji Kempou, supposedly based on his knowledge of Aikijujitsu and looking at murals at the Shaolin Temple. Kenjitsu became Kendo, Kyujitsu (archer) became Kyudo, and so forth and so on.

But then, there was lots of fragmentation (like Yip Man Wing Chun!), where exceptional practitioners branched off with new styles-- like Mas Oyama creating Kyoukushin after learning from Funakoshi; and after his death, the fragmenting of Kyoukushin into Oyamakai, Seidokai, and Shiseikai. Or how Aikido now has the Tomikikai and the Morihei's stuff recognized by the Honbu in Tokyo.

I have this manuscript translated from Chinese that someone sent me that talked about the histories of various families of Karate and their ties to specific styles of Kung Fu. If I can dig it up, I'll pass on the choice bits....

But of course, all the connections and history is moot. We all know that Chinese Boxing rocks Karate. Saint Bruce proved it in the Chinese Connection, afterall.

Which probably explains why Chinese martial arts are gaining popularity in Japan now :P

[Vash]

Indeed. Us toudi/karate peeps suxors.

Now, if we could just get all those crappy TKD schools to put Karate on their signs, we'll be set for life . . .

Oh Wait! We did! Score!

[black and blue]

I have a book at home (will look up name and author tonight), which details all the styles of Karate found in Okinawa.

It's really interesting. Some of the styles have shapes that 'really' resemble some Kung Fu styles (one looked a little like Bagua palms), and there is also a very soft style that looks a little like Aikido (working joint manipulation etc)

One style specialises in restraint and rope-tying techniques. I'll dig it out tonight and post the books details tomorrow... it really is a good book. Bought it years ago when I was a little Karate Kid playing around with Shotokan.

[yuanfen]

Before my wing chun- a long time ago- I used to work out/spar with a wado ryu black belt who learned from Dr Otska(sp?)in Japan-the founder of Wado. The Dr, was originallya jujutsu man
and also given the loyalty system didnt want to call his system wado until his shotokan teacher-Funakoshi -passed away.
According to my friend the good "Dr." wanted to put some of the jj locks and controls back into his art and also parallel CMA conceptions of deflection and less of the direct shotokan blocks.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


One of my good friends (Marcelo Sequiera) was the middle weight Wado Ryu champion of Brazil. Its a pretty good Karate art with some good Waist usage to transport the power. It is still a harder art than WC but by most Karate stadards it is a bit more flexible than what has become the norm.

If my memory is not too far off I remember him telling me that the art was a combo of Shotokan, Kenpo & Jiu Jitsu. Now a days there are two main branches. Wado Ryu and Wado Kai I think???

Fighting with him was some of the toughest matches I have ever had. He was a professional teacher, all he did was train daily as he was part of the national team of Brazil and run his school. Hands down he had the best Karate I have ever experienced. Not to mention he was one hell of a Kick Boxer!


See ya,

[old jong]

Wado Ryu used to have some different kicking techniques than Shotokan.
They had a Yoko geri (Side kick) that was done like a mae geri (Front kick) to the side.They also had what is known as sokuto in Shotokan and ushiro was thrown directly behind as in TKD.

Joy has also hit the nail on the correct end.