Effects of chaos on combat

[jon]

Im gonna try and start up a debate here relating to practical application of traditional movements.
I will start by relating my personaly opinion on the matter and then if anyone else would like to state there's then we can start to find out some of the different attitudes to this.

For me personaly i relate combat to Chaos theory.
Put simply.
Random unpredictablity within complex systems.
This relates to combat on a fundamental level becouse EVERY movement the humun body makes could be considered a 'complex system movement' and according to chaos every complex system has the eventual problem of breaking down with time due to its own inherent over relience on complexity, hence something, somewhere WILL go wrong.
Take someone throwing a lead jab from a regular stance over and over again at the same target. You may think that you could block every one of these movements with the exact same defence but in practical terms could you really?
When you think about it there is ALWAYS a variable within every single punch, infact no two movements the human body makes will EVER be exactly the same. With our puncher every punch is going to be the same and yet 'slightly' different. So in real terms we start to see that by us using the same counter we are putting ourselfs in a dangerous position of getting into a set mind that is actualy false. What we need to do is to stop looking at our punch as simply a 'jab' but rather take it EXACTLY as what it is. If its fast, if its snappy, if its timed, if its subtle, if its hard. All of these things could all be expressed differently within the same rough movement. Hence how we deal with this same movement should be in actual fact different according to what actualy happens, not different according to what we think will happen.
Ie this makes basicaly any practical application you learn in the class room funadmentaly flawed as you could in reality NEVER apply it exactly as you are shown.
For me i believe that practical application is a means of example, you are given a technique to play with and start to understand but when it comes to fighting with it the way you use it could be totaly different. Any movement imo should only be a source of power generation and mindset, practice should NEVER become a case of 'if you do this ill do that' as this is false thinking and leads to overconfidence in poor technique.
Rather what needs to happen is preasure testing and forcing the student to think lateraly.
A good example of this is sparring using only 3 techniques against an opponent using a full range. At first it will seem impossible as your mind simply is not capable of comprehending how such a thing could be done but over time you beguin to learn to actively find ways to make your techniques fit in. Take for example an uppercut. If you are only allowed this attacking movement you will pretty soon start using it to defend with as well, from this training you will learn how to actively addapt the uppercut to any situtation you feel fit. Now imagine what happens when you have trained the majority of your movements this way! You start to find a feel for simple combat not technique, your technique becomming simply an expression of your intent.
Your intent matching your skill is what causes you to excell in combat.
This also leads back to preasure testing, you must use opponents who are resisting and dedicated to breaking your structure. To many people practice in this half hearted hit you from a mile away fashion and its rubbish.
If your training application and you fudge your defence you SHOULD be hit, if not your partner has either held back or simply missed. This is rough but its the right way to do it, ive copped pleanty of punches to the face over my time and i dont regret any of them, Im just happy that they happened with a partner who didnt decide to take advantage of the opening.
Im not saying people should train from scratch like this but there comes a day when you have to stop pretending your skills and start properly seeing if they work.
I also think for this same reason that all martial artists should activly look at there own structure and style and find its flaws and weak points. If you dont think it has any then your not going to be any good in combat so give up now! Seriously this is a funadmental step to using your art as it lets you understand how an opponent might react towards your own movement. You should not second guess them but you should certainly know what you need to protect. Otherwise your going to be in a world of hurt againsts a skilled opponent.
I hope i havent gone to heywire in this post but this is something that interests me and im hopping someone else might be interested in discussing such things.
Plus ive been sparring with an old Hung Ga partner a lot lately and cant get combat out of my mind.

__________________

[EAZ]

Most incisive I must say, a good point of view!

What you describe seems to relate to the principle of "breaking the mould" in our school.

ANd it has direct repercussions into Yi King and into our previous 5 animal discussion.

Thanks.

[TAO YIN]

Jon

Techniques might be different within each movement, but at the end of the technique it's still the same technique no matter how many times it is done.

Practical applications taught in the classroom should work as they were shown, or pretty close to it. This all depends on your mind set. Techniques out of a form are done where each move can be used as one or as a set up for the following move, and so on.

With the basic Hung Gar punch that chambers, what are you doing this for in application? What is the chamber for?

thanks

TAO YIN

[jon]

Im not sure I totaly understand your post, im also not sure you totaly understood mine.
I believe as stated that application shown in class is a means of example, it MAY work that way on the street but you would be lucky if you didnt have to change something somewhere.
You must of course start by training in set patterns and with set outcomes but over time such training can eventualy become counter productive.
Forms are the same in my opinion, they are a means of example, its not uncommen to see different linages having the different applications for different moves. How you apply your tiger may well be a bit different to how i apply mine, we are both different people after all.

"Techniques out of a form are done where each move can be used as one or as a set up for the following move, and so on."
* I agree with this in pricinciple and know many Hung forms are done this way in terms of mindset. However i would honestly question if you could apply the same patterns of attack and defense verbatim as they are found in the form. If you both knew the same system your partner would pick you from a mile away.
The trick is to be able to pull your form appart and put it back together again, once you can exapand and contract any technqiue and fit any movement into any adaptation your a long way towards mastering your forms.

"With the basic Hung Gar punch that chambers, what are you doing this for in application? What is the chamber for? "
* This is the part i found confusing, im not sure where your going with this but ill do my best to answer you.
The camber is obviously to gain power, as stated previously all movements should be a method of power generation and mindset.
Application of the movement should obviously vary, this is a bit of a strange question to ask the application of a basic chambering punch?

I have proberly misunderstood your post as stated but thank you for your insights anyway.


EAZ
Im glad you found the post relevent.
I also find the application of animal instinct fits in with this style of thinking very well. Would you like to maybe exapand on your theorys for how the animals relate to combat?

[tomcat]

Hi Jon,
My Sifu always taught that you had to adjust your techniques for combat,ie distance body positionng etc.
generally speaking most teachers show 1 or 2 combat uses for a particular movement when it may be used in many more ways on the human anatomy. I think it was in one of Yang Jwing Ming's books where he stated you should look at a technique from different perspectives ie. the obvious, to control , break , throw,point stike ,seal the breath etc.
During combat there are times you can throw a string of techniqes right out of the form,but at some point due to the everchanging "chaos of combat" the right move may come from somewhere else altogether!
I read a book a while back that the highest level of forms is a formless form. This is a form performed beautifully that has never been done before using techniques and combo's from all the forms you've ever learned , at random.
I think the highest level of combat would be similar, with the uncontrolled movement of the apponent the great martial artist must adapt.
At least thats my theory,for arts such as Hung-Gar and Shaolin which are the arts that I study.

[Buby]

If the first move of your attack is pulled off properly then a follow up pattern taken from a form can be used. I like to think of patterns found in a form as samples to get me thinking of how, why and when certain moves can be pulled off.

Are you familiar with Kinomatics?


"Ie this makes basicaly any practical application you learn in the class room funadmentaly flawed as you could in reality NEVER apply it exactly as you
are shown." - Does it need to be applied exactly the same every time? I think not! As long as the principles behind the move are there what difference does it make if the app. isn't applied exactly the same. ex. you jab, I parry. The first time I parry you on the wrist. The second time I catch just below the wrist. Isn't the move the same regardless of were I parried your jab? It's still a parry. It's still performed in the same manner I learned in class. If someone is able to get through my parry, then it has nothing to do with the tech, but has everything to do with my timing/speed...Not the move.

Just a lil something, something, on how I see things.

Take care,
Buby

[fiercest tiger]

Man, i didnt know fighting was that complicated?

[jon]

Buby
Thanks for your post
"If the first move of your attack is pulled off properly then a follow up pattern taken from a form can be used."
* I would have to disagree with you here, CAN is the opperative word but failsafe it certainly is not. It is better imho to totaly addapt on the fly. If my form is 1234 i may end up with 2431 if you get my meaning. I respect what you are saying and i know that different systems view form differently but i dont believe in pulling whole combinations out of forms for fighting. I still use all the movements found in forms but the way i use them can change quite a lot. Some short combinations are fine but i would not pre commit myself more than 1-2 moves in advance.

"As long as the principles behind the move are there what difference does it make if the app. isn't applied exactly the same. ex. you jab, I parry. The first time I parry you on the wrist. The second time I catch just below the wrist. Isn't the move the same regardless of were I parried your jab?"
* This is inline with what im saying, there is 'small' differences in every movement the trick is to let the movement addapt within its boundarys. The combination may be the same but i would hate to think what happens if you try to make it toooooo set. Ie if you everytime attempt the EXACT same movement with your block no matter how the punch varies you will get into trouble.
A good shielding movement should be addaptable to almost any range or strike. Its just diffusion of force its not a direct answer to a question if you get my meaning.

tomcat
"I read a book a while back that the highest level of forms is a formless form. This is a form performed beautifully that has never been done before using techniques and combo's from all the forms you've ever learned , at random. "
* This is something i try to do a lot in my own training as to me this is one of the closest reprentations of pure free poetry in motion.
At this level you must rely on your past training and let it feed though you instead of simply remembering bits of it. I find this the most rewarding kind of practice actualy, shame im not that good at it yet. Its also a LOT easyer with my Bagua than my Hung Though is mainly just to do with the flow of the systems. When i can stick the two together in free form i will be happy. One of these days ill actualy make a full form for myself to practice but i actualy think making it up on the fly is a better skill. I was taught a fair wack of drunken to be used like this.

fiercest tiger
hehe errr glad you could 'join' us
"Man, i didnt know fighting was that complicated?"
* Nah fighting is simple anyone can do it, getting good at it is the complicated part

[BIU JI]

I think your chaos theory is threatening to kick in with you! You must have alot of time on your hands to complicate simply punching

[fiercest tiger]

Never under estimate your opponent, fighting is never easy!

Are you into this chaos theort because of your bagua training being a daoist art?

What is primordal chaos?

so after you learn the bagua form you learn how to use free form or no form?

fighting is no set pattern agree with you here, but setting up and using entry techniques can flow as a form if you know how!

Do you do push hands yet?

Later
FT

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Fierce tiger,

In the old days, there wasn't a distinction between, science, religeon and philosophy. Accordingly, styles like ba gua may have been explained in terms of daoist philosophy. If the parctitioners had been mainly buddist, the description may have been buddist.

Lets see how martial arts fits within the chaos framework. It would imply that a small change in the initla conditions lead to vastly different outcomes. However, the system must have sufficient control such that it does not become random - eg. Brownian motion. None of you have made this distinction and i don't suppose any of you who have posted so far have a sound knowledge in maths.

In martial arts, the aim is to dominate the opponent and achieve the definable objective. If both opponents are equally matched, then the outcome would be close to 50/50 which would be random. However, if the odds are skewed to say 49/51, then if you chart the outcome of many matches it would still look random.

But at a certain threshold - such as one opponent succumbing to exhaustion etc, you may find the other dominating the match. Chaos systems experience "brification", ie. the path shoots of in a direction if certain parameters are breached.

[nospam]

jon,

..debate here relating to practical application of traditional movements. For me personaly i relate combat to Chaos theory.
Put simply. Random unpredictablity within complex systems.

So in real terms we start to see that by us using the same counter we are putting ourselfs in a dangerous position of getting into a set mind that is actualy false.

Hence how we deal with this same movement should be in actual fact different according to what actualy happens, not different according to what we think will happen: this makes basicaly any practical application you learn in the class room funadmentaly flawed as you could in reality NEVER apply it exactly as you are shown. You must of course start by training in set patterns and with set outcomes but over time such training can eventualy become counter productive.

ANSWER: The trick is to be able to pull your form appart and put it back together again, once you can exapand and contract any technqiue and fit any movement into any adaptation your a long way towards mastering your forms.

Practical application of Traditional movements incorporates chaotic principle. Traditional instruction is a dynamic, systematic model that accounts for time-varied training (incorporating individual behaviour, both internally and externally) within a greater and dynamic (chaotic) system. Traditional systems can best be described as using different equations (techniques) to specify the rate of behavioural change. Determinism is a fundamental teaching method or tool that is used to establish consistency and imprint a system's principles. In the beginning, it might appear as if the Traditonalist is patterned by particular behaviour, and indeed this is true to begin with, but external influences are not shruged off, they are in actuality navigated by them!

I refer you back to my "answer" quote where you provide the measure incorporated into any traditonal based learning. I believe it is the student's lack if experience and understanding and inability to think outside of the box that bears the true fault behind the common belief that traditional martial arts have failed the modern martial artist.

Go to college for 2 years with quick earnings of $30 G's per year- this sounds good and places a favourable outcome in the shortest time possible, as opposed to attending University for 4-5 years with potential earnings of $40-$60 G's per year. The measure is longer, and most student's tendencies are to grab the quickest path possible for the quickest possible outcome. But in the long run, who's path will consistently provide for greater possibility? In terms of martial arts, students are prone to measure their worth and the worth of their effort based on the shortest rate possible.

This is compounded as students of a once traditional system become disenchanted by their apparent lack of outcome and seek instruction elsewhere; instruction that invariably leads them to a teacher of similar mind regarding how outcomes are measured ie) by the shortest rate possible. These individuals become teachers and can provide less as they have experienced less.

And jon, as you've said: The trick is to be able to pull your form appart and put it back together again, once you can exapand and contract any technqiue and fit any movement into any adaptation your a long way towards mastering your forms. And this is merely one influence among many utilised within the Traditional system of instruction. One other problem is that many under the guise of traditional teaching are in fact, not. They utilise similar structure but do not have the understanding on how to specify the rate of behavioural change- a key for any knowledgeable teacher of any system.

So regarding fundamentally flawed applications within the traditional system of teaching? Perhaps it is not a flaw within the system, but a flaw of a person working within a system (or looking at a system) they do not understand or have not given an appropriate period of time to progress beyond intermediate rates of application.

nospam.

[extrajoseph]

nospam,

So regarding fundamentally flawed applications within the traditional system of teaching? Perhaps it is not a flaw within the system, but a flaw of a person working within a system (or looking at a system) they do not understand or have not given an appropriate period of time to progress beyond intermediate rates of application.

Always a pleasure to read your intelligent words.

jon,

Chaos Theory is just a fancy name for a small part of Yijing thinking, so don't let these MacYi ideas get into your way of old fashion solid training. If you ever got lost, Belmore Park is where the old Chinese Garden use to be.

JosephX

[fiercest tiger]

So would anyone here use what they have learnt at all?



i wasnt any good at maths, can i still fight? can street fighter fight without this knowledge?

you guys are to confusing, there is no set pattern in a fight as i said but i can still pull off moves from forms guarenteed AND I DONT KNOW MATHS, also if all is equal it also depends on your ticker.

cya
FT

[extrajoseph]

How is the fire in Sydney? Are you guys cooled down yet?

All this means is that in reality, theories are no more than the sum of our experiences, they are good for the mind but we have to translate them into practice to be of any use.

However, on the internet, we can only "fight" with words. It is impossible to express or to test what is essentially a 4-D experience on a 2-D surface thousands miles apart. Cyber space is the playground for the 2-D airheads and not for the DTE4D street fighters like yourself. If you can understand this, then your maths is not too bad and you have a bonza ticker after all. :-)

Please give my regards to Belmore Park and the Chinese Garden, I had fond memories of these places.

Peace and Cheers,

JX