Internal, External, Peng, Spirals, Psychic Powers, Structure and Philosophy.....

[Repulsive Monkey]

There is no end to your imbalance is there? I know this will probably sound like an insult but I do mean these things in humour too, but you seem to be really stuck with some of yours ideas, they come across as so stagnant and inexperienced. You say that levitation and emptyforce doesn't fit into the realms of qhantum physics... guess whats coming?... so what that really in the real world doesn't mean a single thing. Can see what I'm gonna come back with? Im just gonna take on your persona for a second or two, quantum physics doesn't fit in with the methods and laws of levitation/Lin Kong Jin. Now tell which of the two statements sounds the silliest??? Well, naturally they both sound just as biased. The known world and its so-called depedence on western science to pull us out of the Stone age and make us see the light for what it trully is, is such a blinkered view Fu Pow, can you not see that? I do no say that the side I fight for is the way either, but at least I don't rubbish your area of support, just your stance. Have you equally studied both areas to examine results? Have you tried Qi Gong for a resonablly good length of time, or meditation and then assessed your findings methodically to come up with your results like an good western scientist would??

All I say is in this world we cannot afford to be closed minded. I liked the way in one of Robert Anton Wilson's books where he states in his own words the 2 most important lessons that The Lord Buddha gave:

1) Never ever totally believe anybody else's belief system;
2) Never ever totally believe your own belief system.

That man's a genius......

[prana]

bamboo_leaf

beautiful *sob* *sob*


I think it all reflects the reality of the person posting, if your not there or haven’t touched it hard to believe or even consider. I try not to view things as right or wrong but more of level and direction.


wise words

[Fu-Pow]

Have you equally studied both areas to examine results? Have you tried Qi Gong for a resonablly good length of time, or meditation and then assessed your findings methodically to come up with your results like an good western scientist would??

Repulsive Monkey-

It is you that appears to be stuck in a single state of mind. As in the previous thread you have resorted to attacking my base of knowledge. I'm sorry but that is where the conversation ends. You have no knowledge or me as I have no knowledge of you. The internet is a poor medium to discuss such things.

I've never represented myself as an expert on the topic of quantum mechanics, TCM or Taiji. All I will say on the topic of my "credentials" is that I have studied these concepts for "a while."

I do have an "open mind" and my ideas are subject to change, but I need to see a credible and well reasoned argument first. If there are one lesson I've learned in my life it is that 1) Bullying people gets you nowhere and 2) you cannot force understanding on people. If you really care for your fellow kung fu brethren then you try to guide them and not lord over them or claim to know more than them. I'd expect that in the main forum but not here.

It is a shame that you insist on ending conversations in this way, when it was just getting good.

Peace

[PlasticSquirrel]

i should first say that i didn't read through all of the posts (mostly because some of them are really long...), but i think i can tackle the problem, or something. this is my favorite topic, anyway.

internal/external are not states of mind, nor body mechanics. if they were anything so simple, would we even be debating about these things? they deal with the manipulation of qi. in my experience, not being biased either toward the "external" styles or the "internal" styles, this is what the main difference is between the two:

both categories use qi, and use it well. both at a normal, good level of proficiency use form to direct qi. now, here it is in a nutshell: internal styles focus on using form to encourage qi flow, which powers the body in order to express itself. external styles encourage qi flow and express it by manipulating the tendons and muscles in accordance to their concepts (i.e. tiger, crane, dragon). neither is clearly better, and great masters from both sides have seemed mystical in their abilities.

is it only me that can see this? are there only a few people on this board that actually experience and manipulate qi as something tangible and normal? right now i am breathing through my feet, sharing qi with the floor as i sit. it's not that tough, if only people would stop reading and start practicing... it requires *constant* observation and speculation to get anywhere. if you don't know what works, what doesn't, and how you know when it does, how far can practitioners expect to get?

sorry about the rant, but this topic also seems to get me a little worked-up...

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Perhaps, the reason "butt-tucking" is taught is to correct incorrect postures.. Many of the westerners (me included) developed poor postures is their young years, you know, that "cool" slouching posture.. Whenever we say a "natural" posture, often we must first repair a poorly developed unnatural posture.. just because when we relax we assume a certain posture doesn't, by definition, make that a natural posture.. just like those that breathe with their chest muscles instead of their abdominals, just because that is what they are used to doesn't make it "natural".. Much of the early training for students is reshaping their concepts of "natural".. before good Tai Chi technique can be executed, you must have the correct "frame"..

I have been taught (and so i also teach) that the shoulders, hips, and ankles should be in vertical alignment when viewed from the side in a Wuji stance.. that the back should be perpendicular to the ground ( actually, aligned with the pull of gravity to minimize unbalanced pull).. this is a neutral position, allowing movement and response in any direction.. The back is treated as the axis/axle around which we rotate our energies.. if this axle is leaning or bent, rotation will wobble or require extra effort to maintain.. to afford the straightest axle with the minimum effort, a slight rotation forward of the hips seems to do the job nicely..

Have you ever been standing too long and had that ugly low-back pain remind you of poor posturing habits?.. try rotating your hips forward and slightly up.. almost invariably the pain is dissipated as you equally distribute the pull of gravity along the spine and open the Ming-men releasing the tension stored there.. This simple exercise is evidence that the spine should be aligned with the pull of gravity.. common-sense... The "S" shape of the spine is constantly compressed by the pull of gravity, putting unequal tension at the extremes of the curves.. the more we refine our stances to straighten and elongate the spine, the more we minimize the tension and associated pain..

"Butt-tucking", from my experience is not so much an issue of form, as an issue of correcting poor frames so that the form itself will be more correctly expressed..

just another perspective from the Far-side.. be well, all..

oops.. got my threads mixed up.. this should be on "Chi-Huggers and Butt-Tuckers".. i will copy this there.. sorry

[cherrypraxis]

i've enjoyed reading this thread. as usual, the leaf, prana, taichibob, repulsivemonkey and a few others show the wisdom of discretion...

lastly, a thank you to fu pow for opening this thread to which all these insightful queries have sprung in re-action to the initiated action...

some comments...

FuPow:

"I highly doubt that anyone has reached a level "understanding" about the universe in the same way that western science has."

i am uncomfortable with this statement because of the scope it implies. how do you define "western science"? where do you set the parameters of "western science"? do you mean from the epoch of the greeks and onwards? what level of "understanding" do you speak of?

like prana, i will have to agree with bamboo_leaf with his pivotal comment in this thread, "Real, what is real?" yes, it is sad that we utilize science to verify everything under controlled conditions. i suppose that it is only then that we can distinguish what is "real" and what is "illusion". it cannot be helped. to paraphrase the words of the french psychoanalyst jacques lacan, truth, once it is accepted, is harder to recognize from the reality it exists in. there is nothing wrong with using science as a tool and method of inquiry. however, it is also difficult to maintain an objective mindframe when one is already predisposed to a certain perspective. this is true for science. for instance, in classical physics and relativity theory, an objective reality, existing independently of an observer, was a given. this certainty has been shattered by the studies of werner heisenberg. it has been pointed out by this german physicist, in his groundbreaking theory about quantum phenomenon, that the observer is not a passive element in any given experiment and that we cannot separate the observer from what is being observed. science is not immutable. it is, like the proverbial everything else, subject to human flaw and error as it is the human mind and hand that wields it. it is, like the proverbial everything else, in need of constant upgrading.

another example of "western science's" fallibility and effect on what is accepted as reality: ptolemy's cosmological diagram that the earth is the center of the universe. this fit nicely with what the christian Church at the time believed to be "real," that man IS the center of the universe as dictated by the one god. the Church had galileo jailed for his copernican claim that the earth is NOT the center of the universe but rather another planet, or heavenly body, that revolves around the sun.


"It is foolish to think that the laws of physics are immutable, but it will probably take great expense and technology to break them. It will not be so easy as doing martial arts or meditating."

yes, it would seem that the laws of physics are immutable. are they really though? it seems that we, collectively speaking, are always putting our proverbial foot in our mouths. only time will prove whether they are, indeed, in the right or not. perhaps the laws are immutable but what of our perception of these laws?

i must disagree with your implication that martial arts or meditating are easy practices. "gong fu" means, loosely translated, mastery from effort. gong fu can be achieved through tea ceremony or painting as it can be from meditation and martial arts. how many can truly say that they have gong fu?


To PlasticSquirl:

you said:

"i should first say that i didn't read through all of the posts (mostly because some of them are really long...), but i think i can tackle the problem, or something. this is my favorite topic, anyway."

in context of the dialogue/thread and your own admission that you did not read through this thread, then you shouldn't have said:

"is it only me that can see this? are there only a few people on this board that actually experience and manipulate qi as something tangible and normal? right now i am breathing through my feet, sharing qi with the floor as i sit. it's not that tough, if only people would stop reading and start practicing... it requires *constant* observation and speculation to get anywhere. if you don't know what works, what doesn't, and how you know when it does, how far can practitioners expect to get?"


---

again, thank you all...this has been a stimulating thread to read...

[Fu-Pow]

Cherry Praxis-

First of all, thank you for your thoughtful post. We need more of them.

By western science I mean the process of unraveling reality by the process of making a hypothesis and then testing the hypothesis in a controlled setting.

Interestingly enough I just watched an interesting show last night on discovery call "Physical Feats." Most of the documentary was centered around amazing "Physical Feats " in Asia and India. For example they had excorcisms, people walking on glass, people walking on nails, people pulling a car with hooks through the back of their skin, they had the monk Shi Yan Ming breaking boards etc.

And in the end , it could all be explained by simple freshman physics, psychology or "magic" tricks.

My favorite example was these North Indian monks who could supposedly raise their body temperature by meditating. They would go sit out in the mountain snow over night and miraculously never get cold. Well interestingly when the brought one of these monks back to the U.S. to a "controlled" environment he couldn't repeat the phenomena.

So how are these things like balls of floating plasma, lin kong jing etc. any different? There not and they cannot be repeated in a truly controlled environment.

Human perception is easily decieved.

As to the break down of Western science on the quantum level.

The point here is that it is on the quantum level. We don't live on the quantum level. We live in the atomic world with a whole different set of principles. So basically things that go on in the quantum world can effect the atomic world. But things in the atomic world don't necessarily have the reverse causality.

Now I've never maintained that Western Science can model and test everything. For example the human body is very complex and all the stuff going on is going to be perfectly explained. However, I will make the statement that whatever is modeled will fit in with basic physics and it has nothing to do with anything quantum.


Gotta go.........

[Repulsive Monkey]

It's a shame that you took my last comment the wrong way and also wrong to take it as a dedicated personal attack, because it wasn't by any means meant to be that harmful. However when you make generalisations, you have to expect that people
will challenge you to explain your statements. Of course its true you don't have to back them up with evidence if you don't want to, and thats fine. However when you make generalisations like "There not and they cannot be repeated in a truly controlled environment." what do you expect. Just because one single biased experiment is done, does that mean it cancels out every single occurence throughout history of that nature and labelled nice and tidily under that limiting label?? Thats just like the so-called Christian 700 club saying that all Muslims are evil. Do you then go out and accept that as fact and classify all Muslims the same? No of course you wouldn't would you Fu Pow? You accept that certain elements that just happen to be part of the Muslim community/faith have done something, possibly, to upset other people. This is exactly how you keep coming back to my responses to your statements.

I will agree to close down any further substantiation of this thread, and personal dialogue with you if its please you Fu Pow. However I do take some offence against your claims that I have defiled this thread merely because I ask you to substantiate and give your stance a revisionist once-over! I have just backed up my own experiences with my knowledge. I have never bullyed anyone in my life except for when I was probably 7 years old at school. I have some of your comments incredulous yes, but only to the point of trying understand where you're coming from and to suggest you maybe substantiate your claims. That isn't much to ask for is it?

I do not mean to create tension just seasoned debate.

[prana]

Good-day Fu-Pow,

I just wanted to say

I hope you do not feel as if you have been challenged ever since putting up this thread. I believe that you genuinely have an interest in this area, and I am greatful. Well done and I hope many successes and signs come to you.

I believe that if a seed has been planted, the plant will grow if it sees so fit, when the rain comes, so let nature take its course.

ps.
I am sad indeed I didnt get a chance to see the documentary you watched on chandali yoga.
_________________________________________________
Repulsive Monkey

In your defence, I do not think you have caused distraction in this thread. It suc-ks speaking on a public forum and with words, cause words do not do justice to your true intentions.

Don't allow mara to hinder your bodhicitta.

BTW, you were saying that you are seeing many hindrances ahead, how are you ?

_________________________________________________

[PlasticSquirrel]

heheh, i was actually just responding to the first post on the thread, and i got bored with the whole physics vs. qi stuff. it's a lot of reading, and i was a bit tired. my ranting was actually not directed at anyone, but rather the groups of people that the thread originator was addressing and referring to.

i got a little agitated because i constantly see people just "not getting" it, and then leading other blind people. it has now become acceptable for people on this forum to not "believe" in qi, like it's from a fairy tale, or some body mechanics phenomenon. it is also bad (but not nearly as bad), when people mystify it all.

i have only been practicing for a few short years, but i can already see that there are few on this forum that talk about qi with any sort of practical experience. even the guys that "keep it [gongfu] real", and claim to be able to fight really well show little depth, and a lot of unrefined brute force.

i guess the point of my post is this (i don't want to just whine on this one): listen to the people that understand and have experience. ask them how they know something if it seems questionable, and if they are able to do it, or to elaborate on their experiences. it's the only way to filter out this forum so people can begin to learn.

[cherrypraxis]

"By western science I mean the process of unraveling reality by the process of making a hypothesis and then testing the hypothesis in a controlled setting."

this is good. i was not sure before what you meant by "western science" and now that you've defined western science as 'reality'-testing within a controlled setting, we've formulated a thesis from which we can somehow work from. i must point out that, in a parallel context, philosophy is also 'reality'-testing within a controlled setting as philosophers usually work from a single hypothesis and through logic, expound on their thesis.



"Interestingly enough I just watched an interesting show last night on discovery call "Physical Feats." Most of the documentary was centered around amazing "Physical Feats " in Asia and India. For example they had excorcisms, people walking on glass, people walking on nails, people pulling a car with hooks through the back of their skin, they had the monk Shi Yan Ming breaking boards etc."

you saw all these from a documentary? sometimes, even documentarists have their own agendas in presenting their material. don't believe everything you see...
i once saw an hour-long news program about medical malpractice. does this prove that all doctors are ethically unsound and that i shouldn't go to to a physician anymore? obviously, there are diverse doctors both in specialty and skill. my point here, however, is that there are more factors involved than what meets the eye. also, please do not refer to shi yan ming as a monk. many i know here, regardless of whether they are buddist or not, do not respect him as he is reputed to prostite buddhism for his own gains. i am wary of any "good" i hear about him.

"And in the end , it could all be explained by simple freshman physics, psychology or "magic" tricks. My favorite example was these North Indian monks who could supposedly raise their body temperature by meditating. They would go sit out in the mountain snow over night and miraculously never get cold. Well interestingly when the brought one of these monks back to the U.S. to a "controlled" environment he couldn't repeat the phenomena."

hmm...how would you feel if everyone was staring and testing you when you meditate? pressure leads to many things such as "failure" to repeat the desired results. besides, i don't believe that these monks practice their meditation for spectacle. but that is just me...

"So how are these things like balls of floating plasma, lin kong jing etc. any different? There not and they cannot be repeated in a truly controlled environment."

perhaps not and i will repeat my claim that the heisenberg theory explains this phenomenon...



"As to the break down of Western science on the quantum level.
The point here is that it is on the quantum level. We don't live on the quantum level. We live in the atomic world with a whole different set of principles. So basically things that go on in the quantum world can effect the atomic world."

how is it that we do not live in a quantum level? what do you mean by "quantum level"? each particle in us operates in its own sphere and works in harmony with the rest of the particles be it in a "quantum level" or in an "atomic level."


"But things in the atomic world don't necessarily have the reverse causality."

why not?



"Now I've never maintained that Western Science can model and test everything. For example the human body is very complex and all the stuff going on is going to be perfectly explained. However, I will make the statement that whatever is modeled will fit in with basic physics and it has nothing to do with anything quantum."

you admit that 'western science' cannot model and test everything and you even point out that the human body is complex; hence, this logically provides us with the next implication that there is still much unchartered territory with regards to a) the human body b) everything else.

i.e. how can you measure infinity?

light particles are quanta. i find it difficult to believe that, we and everything else on this planet that depend on sunlight to survive, are not affected by "anything quantum."

again, thank you for beginning this great thread...

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Since my feet are already scarred from many previous shots.. i'll try again.. My experience, my insight, my intuition.. the tools through which we all ultimately assign values to our observations.. leads me to the following conclusions..

I sense that there is a single Whole conscious and self-aware body of energy that is the source of ALL that is.. we often call it the Tao, God, etc.. "in the beginning".. The Whole had no mirrors, had no other beings with which to compare itself to, in short.. it could not know itself.. in its simple wisdom, knowing only that "I AM", it chose to divide itself into an infinite number of parts (the Big Bang).. so the parts could interact, could experience each other and thereby the Whole (Tao) could know itself.. the greatest act of wisdom, however.. is that there is no right/wrong way for the "parts" to experience (that is a construction of the "parts" themselves).. The Whole was wise enough not to confine the experiences of the "Parts" to only those "desirable".. it knew that it must confront its full potential, both Yin AND Yang.. otherwise it could only know a portion of itself.. the wisdom is embracing the light AND dark sides of existence.. the enlightenment, is to live it..

Fast forward to today... When the Whole divided itself into the "parts" it left within each part the memory of the Whole.. the memory of original bliss, when all things were "at One with themselves", that original memory is the link that binds us in the duality of being both the parts AND the Whole at the same time.. Divine Dichotomy.. Today, we each sense at some level that memory, we search for its meaning through religions, rituals, MA, IMA, gardening, etc.. (you get the picture).. we strive to reunite the parts, to re-form the Whole.. in doing so the Whole will, over ages and eons, become One again.. complete with a new understanding of itself.. having evolved somewhat, the Whole will languish in its newly "evolved" awareness.. until, again another cosmic cycle starts with another "Big Bang"..

Well, i'm sure i just shot myself in the foot again.. dang, i probably just blew it completely off.. but, that's how i get to sleep at night.. i know that it's ALL good, that as long as we are embracing the experiences with sincerity and gusto, we are on the cutting edge of creation, we are the universe defining itself..

How does this apply to IMA?.. Back to basics, it's ALL energy, energy behaving in a "universe" of ways.. as Internal Practicioners, we should be somewhat more aware of the interconnectivity of this energy, Tao, Chi, etc.. (it's just a Name).. In our training we should build no boundaries to confine the possibilities (the Tao certainly doesn't confine itself).. We should recognize that science, church, ritual, in fact.. everything except the experience itself.. are abstractions.. too often, we mistake the measurement or the description for the experience itself.. We can force the experience through countless conceptual patterns (styles, forms, names, etc..).. or, as some Masters have suggested.. use the raw material of the universe, energy, that IS you directly, immediately.. it's a matter of believing, knowing.. Many have gotten there through some complex ritual, and to preserve their efforts, they have etched their ritual in stone, named it, christened it as mystical, and marketed it quite well.. Others, have accepted the unity of ALL things, recognized the simple nature of energy and its interactive dance we call life.. when situations demand, they are the ones that reach back to basics, use the energy (chi) with amazing results.. They have reached beyond most people's ability to grasp conceptually, and so.. they are pelted with the stones of prejudice, scoffed, and made mockery of.. (but, i sense they are mildly amused, not offended)..

What i am suggesting is that we each set our own boundaries by the beliefs we choose to hold as truths.. that to evolve in IMA, or any other aspect of Life, set aside prejudice, set aside disbelief, give the universe (Tao, Chi, whatever) a chance to express itself through you.. THAT is the magic.. and it has no limits other than the ones we place upon it..

Well.. by now, i figure i've just about shot myself in both feet and done some major damage to my credibility.. but, that's just who I AM.. be well, all..