TaeKwon Doh!

[Mr Nunchaku]

I respect your opinion, but I still don't believe you (anyone) should judge the entire art, as it is taught today, by generalizing based on some bad schools. I completely agree that there are too many sell out schools that "teach" only for the money. However, there are still good schools and good instructors just like there are good kung fu schools and instructors.

You might not be overly impressed by what TKD you have seen, but I assure you there are enough TKD masters and their students who I believe would surprise you. You say that the training your sensei saw is probably extinct and that one would be lucky to find someone who understands the original intent of TKD. This is what I meant when I said you can't judge an entire art when you don't really know enough about it. There are good instructors and there are definitely good TKD schools. Finally you say that TKD is just sportified. This is one statement I know is not true (not completely anyway). Read my first post in this topic, but here I will talk more about it. There is Olympic style tae kwon do, which is very sportified. An example would be the typical WTF school. That is fine if you like sports, but don't assume that is the extent of all the TKD schools. Many many TKD schools are not sportified. Take mine for example. When we spar, we do not keep a score or see who wins. We just spar and learn from our instructors how to use TKD in sparring for the same reason one would spar in any martial art. There are many schools like this, and that I know is a fact due to my own experiences.

[MA fanatic]

The trouble with TKD, is that its a very political art. Actually, looking back at it's origins, it was founded for political reasons. The TKD forms were originally low level versions of Japanese Karate forms. TKD masters generally don't know the meaning of them. As for self defense, that all depends on the teacher you get. I studied TKD for 7 years. My instructor was a 5 time Korean national TKD champion (full contact rules) wiht a rank of 6th degree. He also held a 5 degree black belt in Hapkido, was a champion of Soul Korea in boxing, and held a second degree black belt in Judo (his father was actually a Judo / Udo coach at the Korean Udo College). In his 12 years of teaching, the guy only passed on 6 black belts. All of them, except myself, had been with him for all 12 years (I was an exception becuase I had several years of Kung Fu prior to joining his school). So not all TKD schools are bad, and some TKD masters can certainly walk the walk. Also, to put down Olympic style fighting because it only teaches kicks is wrong. It's a sport. Just like boxers only punch. But, here's a clincher. Because boxers only punch, their punching skills overcompensate for someone who has a wealth of martial arts knowledge. WTF TKD guys only kick, but they do it well, and they kick with more power than any Kung Fu, or Karate guy (only other guys I have seen kick harder are Muay Thai boxers). I have seen Kung Fu guys lose to TKD guys simply because they underestimated the speed and power of TKD kicks. Olympic TKD guys fight full contact, and fight for three rounds. They don't score unless their kick displaces you (called trembling shock). So when they kick, they have authority behind the kick. They also can hit you from any angle, moving in any direction and even hit yo with a spin kick to the jaw (my favorite move) from an open clinch. If you fight a well trained Olympic TKd guy, keep your hands up, or he'll knock you out.
MA fanatic

[SLC]

"The TKD forms were originally low level versions of Japanese Karate forms."

By the same token, Japanese karate forms were a "one off" of Okinawan forms.... introduced to the Japanese with debatable amounts of true technical candor.

But then the Okinawan styles were derived originally from Chinese arts.

This is my understanding.

Judging TKD's art, by bad TKD schools, is like judging Rolex watches by something you by from Vito on the street corner. It has absolutely NO RELATIONSHIP to the real thing. Rolex watches are not bad because Vito sells cheap bootleg copies.

I think the biggest problem with TKD today is that there seems to be so many maggot schools feeding off of that art. This is further confused by being a very popular sport. This makes it most challenging for a self defense oriented person to find the right place in TKD.

[MA fanatic]

CLS, I agree with you about the forms. Japanese don't have that same depth of understanding kata as the okinawans. And, I'm sure Okinawans missed some interpretations when studying the Chinese forms. This was not my point. Korean TKD masters have received forms which were watered down three times over. As for self defense, there are too many McDojos. Students are receiving black belts in 2 years. Some even in less amount of time. Self defense is not taught. The good competitive schools often mislead consumers stating that they teach self defense. They don't. Teaching a middle age man how to throw jump spin kicks is not self defense. Its stealing money.
MA fanatic

[rogue]

Which forms are you talking about? Which kwan of TKD? In your opinion what is missing from TKDs forms?

[MA fanatic]

It is very complicated to get into the history of forms. OK, I'll do it very quickly. I'm not going to touch on the Chinese forms except to say that they have been instrumental in creating Okinawa-te. That name finally changed in Karate. Okinawan practiced forms to hide the hidden pressure point application of techniques. The standard blocks one practices today (rising block, in block, down block, etc.) were actually strikes along the meridians. What is now taught as hand retractions to simulate more force in the punch or block, were in the past taught is either a joint lock, set up meridian strike, and or mapping out on your body where to strike the apponent on his. There techniques were well hidden and considered deadly. The "one punch one kill" theory didn't come about from the force of the punch or kick, it had to do with pressure point manipulations. (BTW, tai chi forms are the same way...originally designed to hide dim mak points.) When Gichin Funakoshi traveled to Japan in 1922 to teach Okinawan karate, he purposefully changed all the kata. He basically taught the Japanese strikes as blocks. He taught them stances which were pretty much useless and never explained the true meaning of Okinawan forms. Later those forms were passed onto the Koreans during Japans occupation. Actually, masters like the one who created Tang Soo Do actually admited later that they learned forms from Japanese books on kata. So the Korean versian of kata (Poomse, Hyung, etc.) were even more watered down than the japanese kata. If you attend 99% of the TKD schools (as good as they are competitively), the teachers will not be able to explain the forms any deeper than block/punch/step/kick. Actually, most masters will openly tell you that they fail to see the reason for practicing forms other than to make a sport look like an art. My master, though an accomplished fighter and who held a masters rank in Hapkido as well as TKD, was blown away when he began researching the hidden meaning of Okinawan kata and Tai Chi forms.
MA fanatic

[MA fanatic]

In my humble opinion, here is what is missing in TKD.
1) Grappling
2) Effective knowledge of hold escapes
3) Punching / Clinching / Ground Fighting range
4) Knowledge of joint manipulation / Throws / Chokes
5) Proper form interpretations (actual techniques in Poose or Hyungs which have some effective meaning).
6) A strict ranking system (in most TKD schools one becomes a black belt in 2 years)
7) TKD has to many federations, associations, and branches, most masters don't know its history and each organization claims the others are terrible. I have met members from Universal TKD Federation making fun of World TKD Federation for how WTF guys spar, while they themselves beleive in NO CANTACT FULL CONTACT fighting (claiming that their techniques are too dangerous to even touch eachother with). We have ITF (International TKD Federation) guys saying that WTF sucks because they don't allow punching to the face. WTF guys say that though ITF guys allow face punching, they are not allowed to draw blood, ITF guys don't fight full contact and are pulled aside after each point scored. There are other overning bodies for TKD as well. Yet, all fail to see that with the exception of a few knowledgeable masters, most schools are Mcdojos marketing a watered down system to little kids and adults who don't want to devote too much time training.

Personally, I was lucky with my TKD instructor. Most are not. I have seen 8 year olds with black belts running around and adult black belts who couldn't defend themselves if their life dependent on it. The few hard core schools that exist do a great job. There are also schools which are honest about teaching an Olympic sport and openly state that they don't focus on self defense. Those schools generally have very good fighters.

MA fanatic

[wu_de36]

I would be careful of people who teach TKD and Hapkido.

A LOT of times, this means that they teach TKD and some low-level HoSinSul they've picked up along the way. 5 joint locks, maybe a throw or two... Osote Gari, Seio Nage, etc.

Anyone who says they do both, ask to see their HKD certification. See who they trained with, etc.

People justify this by saying that Hapkido is just a generic term for Chin Na. Don't buy into this.

Of course, if you are at a school that truly does both, you'll learn quite a bit.

[Asia]

I skimmed this thread and figure I would add my few since. My first formal art (not the wrestling around with papa) was TKD. I learned at Osan AFB in Korea. For awhile it was the only art I knew the reason I started taking it was I was getting picked on quite abit. I fought quite a bit and the more I fought the better I got. The reason is because experience goes a long way. I have branched off and done other arts. Not because TKD was lacking but because I found several that fit me as well. I still used TKD in my fighting method and (blowing my own horn) have become a VERY proficeint fighter. The effectiveness of the art has to deal with the person more than technique.

I won't go into much TKD history. If you don't know that TKD was shotokan in disquise got find out in Cho's on words. Also the fact the the first hyungs were the same as shotokan kata.

[MA fanatic]

Asia,
I agree with you. Have to say that Cho's TKD forms were even more watered down than the forms Funakoshi gave to the Japanese. Funakoshi later admitted to misinforming the Japanese about what the Kata he taught was really designed for because there was a history of tension between Okinawa and Japan. I can only imagine the version of forms Cho taught. Well, I don't have to imagine, I studied them. I also believe that an art is only as good as it's practioner.

Hapkido and TKD. Unfortunately there are many schools claiming to teach tkd and hapkido for self defense. Unfortunately very few of those masters have qualifications to teach hapkido (usually just teach 2 joint lock techniques for every type of grab, and maybe a couple of throws). Hapkido is a rather complete system (including weapons, ground attacks..though limited in ground fighting, numerous joint manipulations, stand up choking/strangulations, a multitude of kicks and punches, as well as weapons defenses. Many hapkido masters train the Korean millitary and police. Even in the US, hapkido is an art frequently taught to millitary personelle. Actually, Hapkido is in no way a low level version of Chi Na. I studied Chi Na and Wing Chun for 4 years. I studied Hapkido for 7. Trust me, Hapkido is very deep not only in fighting applications, but in meditation, KI development, pressure point and anatomy knowledge. I would say, hapkido is as deep and powerful as Chi Na, if not even more complete. Do, however ask the master of TKD to show Hapkido certification. The two arts are very different and the master would have to train in different schools. My instructor at the time spent 17 years studying Hapkido, while studying and competing in TKD. He had certifications from the Korean Kido association as a 6th dan in TKD, 2nd dan in Udo, and 5th in Hapkido. Always check credentials.
MA fanatic

[Crow1981]

I used to do ITF TaeKwondo years ago as a young teenager. That was my first and only formal (by that I mean having to join an organisation) training I've ever heard.

Currently, I'm training informally with a group of friends with diverse and varied martial art backgrounds. One has a black belt in judo, another a black belt in yoshinkan aikido, another boxes , another a 2nd dan black belt in WTF Taekwondo, and a few other well trained people.

I know the curriculum for both ITF and WTF Taekwondo (to 1st dan belt and beyond) quite well from reading lots of TaeKwondo books as well as from a friend. I knew **** from attending class. Unorganised, useless classes. Learnt more about TaeKwondo from my own than attending classes.

I mean, seriously, I don't mean to put Taekwondo down, but training in this gives a false sense of security. I don't want to type too much becasue of my slow typing speed, but I do need to get a few questions of my chest.

What's with learning the forms/patterns, step sparring, stances, rigid punches, hard blocks and impractical (not all though) kicks?

I asked my friend about this and he says they help with balance etc. Couldn't the time be better spent doing real stuff. I mean I'm guessing even if all the things I mentioned were completely missing from TKD Training, the practioners can still turn out to be good or even better fighters. Maybe it has something to do 'theory of power', but come on?

A few things IMO should be changed for TKD Training. Excuse me if I sound ignorant.

Take away the rigid stances. No real need for them. Learn a couple of relaxed, natural stances.

Teach good footwork.

Take away the rigid punches. Teach proper punches. Include palm strikes, backhand and elbows.

More to come later.

[koycymru]

Good thread, thanks!

[rogue]

OmegaPoint wrote:
"During the Vietnam War my current sensei worked and trained alongside many ROK soldiers (S. Korean) that practiced a style of fighting that looked remarkably similar to the Shorin Ryu he was learning and teaching. He often comments that they were some of the best "karateka" that he has ever seen. That method of training is probably extinct, and you'd be real lucky to find someone that understands the original intent of TKD."

I've heard the same thing about TKD from Vietnam vets. Also the kwan in Vietnam avoided much of the Korean nationalist BS that took over TKD, so you can find versions of TKD that still remain true to it's origins. Also being in a warzone helped keep the edge. My schools lineage goes back to those kwan in Vietnam and looks more like shotokan during kata, but with light fast footwork(not the bouncy stuff) and hard quick strikes during sparring. Don't know if it looks like Shorin (I doubt it does) but it sure doesn't look like any style of TKD I've ever seen either.

[Liokault]

Haveing read how poor TKD is on lots of posts I feel a need to tell you what I saw this sunday at a Sanshou contest.

A friend of mine who has been training in Tai Chi with my club for about a year and who previously trained in TKD was put against a Kung Fu guy with similar experience....... The result was the Kung Fu guy on his back twice in about 15 seconds from round kicks to the head that he never saw coming then dumped on his back from a nice take down then kicked down again. At this point the fight was stoped under the 3 knock down rule. Almost every one who was watching the fight thought that it should have been stoped after the first blow as the kung fu guy just couldnt defend his self.

My point hear is that my friend is a very good TDK guy who used his TKD to beat a Kung Fu guy (hard to say how good he was as the only movement he made was to fall over 4 times) in a full contact arena. No art is worthless its all about how you train and what you train for.

[Dark Knight]

"My point hear is that my friend is a very good TDK guy who used his TKD to beat a Kung Fu guy (hard to say how good he was as the only movement he made was to fall over 4 times) in a full contact arena. No art is worthless its all about how you train and what you train for."

From your post on this guy its safe to say that he had other skills than TKD. So was it TKD skills that allowed him to win or was it a cross training knowledge that he gained.

people bad mouth TKD because it is a limited art. But like any art, if you have training in the other areas of fighting your skills will improve your fighting ability.

TKD will benifit your fighting skills, but dont limit yourself on knowledge. And like you pointed out, its how you train and what you train for that makes the difference.