TaeKwon Doh!

[Merryprankster]

MA Fanatic--

FINALLY--somebody else who believes that the OLYMPIC TKD rules will improve the level of TKD.

Just as you said--a boxer is a dangerous opponent... why are we discounting TKDer's who are TRYING to knock each other out also?

my 2 centavos...

[fa_jing]

So I read that the Shotokan style was combined with an indigenous Korean foot-fighting art, as well as some northern chinese kicks. I remember from my days studying TKD that the most distinctive feature of the system was the training methods, all the straight legged stretch/exercise kicks, the wall kicks, etc. And TKD players favor a full pivot and chamber for their kicks. Is there actually anything that's not included in Karate, even if it's with a different emphasis? Also, besides the inside/outside crescent kicks, I don't see too much relation between Korean and Chinese-style kicking, so I tend to think it passed through Karate and possible the indigenous foot art.

-FJ

[Good, better, Me]

There are lots of beautiful women in taekwondo
Anyways I practise it, and love it. Not the selfdefence so much, but the flying kicks etc (which don't have much to do with self defence or street fighting anyways). Taekwondo is a good sport, and it can be a good martial art. I train for the sport for now. I'm not trying to archieve a black belt, train my mind or be the ultimate warrior. I just want to do tricks
That's just my opinion, and that's the reason why I train taekwondo.

Did that make any sense? Hmmm, I can't see any point for this post. haha.

[scotty1]

"The result was the Kung Fu guy on his back twice in about 15 seconds from round kicks to the head that he never saw coming then dumped on his back from a nice take down then kicked down again"

Excluding the takedown, I would say it was the TKD skills (knockout kicks) that won the guy this match. The takedown came third in a series of 4 successful attacks, so the guy had already been knocked down twice by roundkicks to the head.

I went along to a TKD class once, and the instructor was very heavy on the joint locks.

[yu shan]

How old is tkd?

[yu shan]

end of thread...

[dre]

My experience was just the Opposite.

When I started to train in Mantis , I started to drop people in my TKD class very quickly. They just couldn't handle the punches from that close in.

[MA fanatic]

How old is TKD? Relatively new. The term TKD was coined in the 50s. The Korean martial arts, however, go back further. Some can be traced to the Japanese occupation of Korea. Others go back centuries.

TKD and self defense: That would depend on the school you train in. Keep in mind, TKD is very political. There are several governing bodies. Giggest being WTF (world TKD federation) and ITF (International TKD Federation). WTF guys fight by Olympic rules (3 rounds, full contact, no punching to face, kicking to head full power, KO wins, kicks to body have to be delivered with trembling shock...sending your apponent back). ITF rules are basically based on a point system. Full power kicks and punches are forbidden. No rounds are fought, but light punching to the head are alloud. KO your apponent will get you disqualified for accessive contact. As for self defense, one just has to ask the master instructor what his background is. Most Korean instructors have had mixed training in Hapkido and/or Judo. Just make sure you don't sign up for a very athletically oriented program where you're only drilled tournament techniques, if your goal is self defense. Instructors vary in experience. I studied Hapkido and TKD for 7 years with a guy who stressed full contact sparring (Olympic WTF style, and bare knuckle similar to kyokushinkai karate style sparring with leg kicks permitted). I have seen other schools who teach literally 3 self defense techniques per belt rank, teach only WTF sparring, and handout black belts in 2 years. Because there are many TKD schools, many teach nonesense.

Funny TKD story. There is an organization Universal TKD Federation where individuals don't spar with any contact at all. Sparring is done with 6 feet apart between apponents. Techniques are poor at best. Yet, many members believe that TKD techniques are just too dangerous to spar with. My friend and I were once confronted by one UTF member who insisted that we were puching wrong because we stood in a boxing stance and kept our chins low. "You can't distribute ki the right way this way." My friend challenged the guy to a light sparring match (nothing serious), the guy refused out of fear of hurting my friend (who has a fairly decent full contact record in Olympic TKD and kickboxing). The UTF guy proceeded to make comments about the lack of skill my friend had. Finally, my budy says, "Ok, lets spar and don't worry about hurting me." So this guy agrees. He looked frightened, and rightfully so. He got tapped (literally tapped...my wife kicks harder when we play around) in the stomach by a round kick and collapsed on the floor. He got up and said, "see how deadly TKD kicks are. That is why you shouldn't spar with them." LOL LOL LOL

MA fanatic

[rogue]

Good one MAF, I'll keep a lookout for them. Kyokushinkai was influential on several kwan, Mas was Korean after all. Sadly you don't see that kind of TKD much anymore.

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by fa_jing
So I read that the Shotokan style was combined with an indigenous Korean foot-fighting art, as well as some northern chinese kicks. I remember from my days studying TKD that the most distinctive feature of the system was the training methods, all the straight legged stretch/exercise kicks, the wall kicks, etc. And TKD players favor a full pivot and chamber for their kicks. Is there actually anything that's not included in Karate, even if it's with a different emphasis? Also, besides the inside/outside crescent kicks, I don't see too much relation between Korean and Chinese-style kicking, so I tend to think it passed through Karate and possible the indigenous foot art.

-FJ

Do you mean northern chinese styles or southern styles kicking because there is a gigantic difference! I think northern styles have similiar kicking to TKD.

[scotty1]

"Take away the rigid stances. No real need for them. Learn a couple of relaxed, natural stances.

Teach good footwork.

Take away the rigid punches. Teach proper punches. Include palm strikes, backhand and elbows. "

Turn it into Kungfu.

[Mr Nunchaku]

Actually, when we spar, we use the same stances but indeed more relaxed and natural. The punches are not rigid and are proper. We relax our arms and throw out fast jabs and tense at the last moment, and you can't add palm strikes, backhands or elbows whent the art is already loaded with them as well as other hand techniques such as knife and ridge hands and knuckle punches (when certain knuckles are extended).

[Boffo]

Here I am, a genuine WTF Tae Kwon Do guy. You know, that evil Olympic style. Here is my say on the subject of 'Tae Kwon Doh'.

About myself, I did Muay Thai and Kali and Wing Chun years ago. I moved to a different town and couldn't find a decent instructor. So I let myself get lazy and fat. In my thirties I decided to get in shape. Since I no longer felt a need to be a 'tough guy', I thought a purely aesthetic or sport style would be fun. Judo wasn't available at that time, the local kung fu schools were overpriced and full of idiots, and a recommended Tae Kwon Do school was minutes from my house and work. The rest is history.

From what I can tell, Tae Kwon Do 'enjoys' the same sort of organization problems as Shotokan Karate. Lots of organizations, of which the WTF and ITFare the largest (and the WTF now dwarfs the ITF). The WTF grew in size thanks to their process of purposefully turning Tae Kwon Do into an Olympic sport. The WTF succeeded in gaining the support of the South Korean government by removing all Japanese elements and references to Japanese history, and by distancing itself from General Choi, the somewhat controversial guy who originally coined the name Tae Kwon Do. While some feel this action by the Koreans has removed a level of integrity from Tae Kwon Do, some also feel that the post-war inability of the Japanese to even try to make amends for the brutal occupation of Korea (and China and Vietnam and Burma etc) more than justifies this forced distance.

While I can understand the Korean resentment, I find the denial of the Japanese root of Tae Kwon Do to be rather silly and self-defeating.

Anyway, the smaller organizations or independant schools usually call themselves 'Traditional Tae Kwon Do' or 'Military Tae Kwon Do', and are apparently very similiar to Shotokan Karate. They are generally snooty to the rest of Tae Kwon Do, to each other, and to anyone else. From what I've seen they are as good or bad in technique and attitude as any other martial arts group I've seen.

Tae Kwon Do is basically directly descendant from Shotokan Karate, and is often called 'watered down Shotokan' by Shotokan practitioners. Shotokan, of course, is often called watered down Okinawan Karate by Okinawan stylists. And I've heard Chinese stylists say that Okinawan martial arts are just watered down Kung Fu. Of course, I've heard of TKD fighters beating Shotokan fighters and Shotokan fighters beating Okinawan stylists and Okinawan stylists beating Kung Fu stylists. And vice-versa. Everyone has their stories about victories and stuff. Who cares... lets move on.

Before the advent of sport (WTF) Tae Kwon Do, kicks were taught at all heights, but now they are taught at waist height or higher. Tae Kwon Do has a lot of leaping kicks, but in sparring you won't see any of them except for jump back kicks.

At the decent competition level, WTF Tae Kwon Do really breaks down to four techniques. Round kick, side kick, back kick, and jump back kick comprise 90% of what you will see. The rules are basically full contact tag, in that you have to demonstrate a body shifting strike to your opponent. This helps deal with favoritism issues that apparently are huge issues in Karate and ITF TKD and Universal TKD circles. Etiquette is a big deal, and entire teams can and are disqualified by the bad behavior or poor sportsmanship of a single member. I think this occurred in the 2000 Olympics.

Tae Kwon Do is a Sport!
I'll be the first to recognize that WTF Tae Kwon Do is a sport. It ain't a martial art, but rather a martial sport like judo or fencing. For self-defense it is quite lacking for all sorts of reasons that would require a dissertation on my part. But I don't do TKD to be a tough guy, but because getting to do full contact sparring without worrying about being hurt too badly or hurting someone else is fun.

What is wrong with TKD being a martial sport?
So long as it isn'tpromoted as self-defense, what is the big beef? No one complains about Judo being sport Jiu-Jitsu. Or fencing being a sport version of European small sword duelling? Or Kendo being a sport version of Kenjitsu? Or muay thai being the sport version of ler drit?

For the record, I think those that promote sport martial arts as self-defense should be shot and stuffed on a wall. Anytime someone (especially women) sees my sport style techniques and pretty flying kicks and asks for self-defense lessons, I direct them to a nearby jiu-jitsu class. Its the responsible thing to do.

I respect those who hold onto the old ways. I really do. The forms and techniques and stances are beautiful to watch. I also respect those who do the mixed-martial-arts stuff. I've thought of giving it a try, not to be a tough guy, but to experience it just once in my life. I just think that in the huge world we live in there is room for all of us, so long as we remain honest and open about our respective interests and styles.

[Merryprankster]

Ah yes--the next time I drop an assailant on his head from my sportive wrestling background, I'll be sure to remember it has no place in self-defence.

I don't know who wrote that sportive art bit but they're fools.

[Boffo]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Ah yes--the next time I drop an assailant on his head from my sportive wrestling background, I'll be sure to remember it has no place in self-defence.

Okay okay! You've made your point! Sport martial arts are a great way of training for real fighting because they get you used to real physical contact. On the receiving end, getting used to taking a punch or kick or being slammed to the ground is very useful. On the giving end, checking out the validity of large portions of technique can be useful too.

The problem with WTF TKD (and even grappling sports like Judo and Wrestling) being used for self-defense is that it relies on the following things:

1. That you have time to stretch beforehand (well, this applies only to WTF TKD and other high kicking sports that don't train for low kicking).

2. A referee will break up clinches and penalize for throws, sweeps, and trips. Kicks below the waist are illegal and punches don't score. (the grappling version of this item is no gouging or biting is allowed).

3. The fighting is occuring on a padded surface that cushions steps and falls.

4. At the end of the the round, the fighting stops for a bit and you can go take a breather and get a drink.