Choy Li fut concepts vs. Wing Chun concepts?

[extrajoseph]

Here is another one I heard from the same guy:

WC was practised by many “Hong Shune” (Red Boat) people, who were Chinese opera troupes that travelled from town to town along the rivers of south of China.

They often practised and fought on the deck of a small boat so they have to adopt their peculiar stance to maintain upright while the boat rocked from side to side.

Many of the “Hong Shune” workers were gay guys (all the female parts were played by man) so it was fashionable to adopt a female stance of seemingly protecting the genital region while facing your opponent front on – a kind of Kung Fu tease.

I know this sounds a little bit ridiculous but it makes a good yarn, so please don’t get hot under the collar about it. No insult, attack or sexism of any kind is intended. Feel free to make a joke out of this.

[yuanfen]

extrajoke?

[jon]

I heard Hung Ga just came from the boats as well and has nothing to do with Shaolin. I also heard the reason why the stances are so low is becouse when they practiced on the boats you would need the stabilty but when indoors on the boats the roofs where also low and prevented jumping up and down to much.

Strange how both Hung and Wing Chun 'apparently'only came from the junks and yet they both addapted very different stances to deal with the boats rocking
I think this seems to be a popular story to discredit one style or anothers origins.
Im pretty sure they would have realised there art was going to have to be useable on land as well as a rocking boat and hence they would not addapt the whole art around that premice.
Still its good way to take the micky.
Ive got 5 years of boat people kung fu so look out

[anton]

Originally posted by jon

Ive got 5 years of boat people kung fu so look out

Oh yeah... well my master was Phillip Rudock, so you better watch your back

[sunkuen]

CLF won't help get the taste out of your mouth.hahaha

[EternalSpring]

Well, I've been slowly reading through the the Southern Kung Fu section here, and saw this thread on page 30 out of 212 and found it really interesting to the point I had to respond even though it's over a decade old lol. Sorry to anyone who finds that annoying.

I've been training Ving Tsun, Tai Chi, and Shaolin kung fu under my sifu for about 10 years, but I moved from NY to Chicago for school and got permission to train at a CLF school here, which I'm loving. I've only been at the CLF for school less than a month and have been mainly training my 10 elements, Ng Lung Ma, and Ng Lun Choi, so I'm obviously a super noob in CLF, but I'm loving it and here are some similarities I've seen so far, as well as other comparisons.

In many ways, Ving Tsun seems to be *kind of* like a small frame altered version of CLF. Again, kind of. This isn't to say Ving Tsun is "small frame CLF," as that'd be wrong from what I know so far. Oh yea, and just to say it again: disclaimer: everything I say is based on my limited knowledge.

some examples:

The basic stance in VT is Kim Yeung Ma, then when you shift from side to side the feet are parallel and the front knee is inward to protect the groin. In CLF as I know it so far, it uses sei ping ma and shifts to gong ji mah (these are the terms I know from shaolin but I assume they're the same in CLF, though maybe not) but it also keeps the knee in for the gong ji ma/bow stance to protect the groin. A big diff here is that in shifting, the weight in CLF is more on the front leg in the bow stance while the turning stance in VT is more rear weighted. There was a CLF dummy drill I did with this that was very similar to something done in Ving Tsun. In CLF I train shifting into bow stances on both sides while punching the dummy with one hand and using the other hand to do "chuen" on the dummy arm. This is similar to doing shifting tan-da or similar drills in Ving Tsun. The block and attack at the same time concept.

10 elements of CLF compared to VT concepts:

Kum - like in VT, the CLF hand doing kum can do a pak/slap type motion but it's also about deflecting with the kiu as well

Na - the Na element I train emphasizes Chuen, which is done similar to how we use the Biu/shooting hand in VT. Both use twisting energy as well as forward energy to deflect and occupy space to the target.

Gwa - VT's gwa/backhand actually does seem like a small frame CLF backhand. In VT, we dont train it with the follow through like when I train my 10 elements, but the concept seems almost exactly the same, especially when training the basics of it on the wall bag where one hand lops/clears an obstruction while the other hand does the backfist.

Sao - Haven't really found a similar movement like this. I feel like in VT, the movements that are similar to Sao and Kup of CLF are Ving Tsun's elbow movements. In VT one of the elbow is also called Kup Jiang, or something like that (never saw it spelled out by my sifu), but I dont know if it's the same type of "kup."

Chop - For me, Chop is trained in a similar way to the way I learned how to train VT's pole punching/jin choi. I learned to train chop at the basic level by starting in kum, clearing with the kum hand and moving into yeurn chop, shifting into diu ma and going back into the sei ping ma while executing yum chop. Now dont get me wrong, this seems like a core skill in CLF while in VT it's something that comes into play AFTER the other empty hand forms, so I personally feel like CLF guys do this better in a sense, but the concepts are similar. Except instead of using kum when in the diu ma, in the jin choi, we shoot forward with a center punch while in a rear weighted stance and then move into the sei ping mah while using something along the lines of a yeurn chop.

Pow - pow, especially with the power generation is like a big frame version of Ving Tsun's "cutting back to centerline" movement in the chum kiu. Pow has a longer bridge and seems to generate a lot of power from the beginning while the "cutting back to centerline" move is smaller with a shorter bridge and during early stages, is more about cutting to the center than having power.

Kup - see sao above

Biu - not as much similarity with Ving Tsun here except for when it's done as the compact biu like how I do it at the end of Ng Lun Choi. The compact biu seems like one type of application of the tan sao in VT. That said, Biu, for me, seems similar to an application of "parting horses mane" in Yang Tai chi.

Ding - From what I understand, ding is the concept of hitting with joints. In CLF I know so far, we first train ding using the elbow. In the VT I learn, we also have "ding sao," but the concept is first trained using the back of the wrist joint.

Jong - somewhat similar to a short uppercut type movement in Ving Tsun (cutting back to centerline).

These are little things I noticed so far. But as I said before, I'm primarily a Ving Tsun guy who is still a baby in CLF and just beginning my cross training in it. While things look different from the outside, I can't help but feel that there are similarities which are probably the result of both arts being Southern Chinese Arts. Either way, I'm loving the opportunity to expand my kung fu knowledge and experiences and look forward to what I learn in the future.

[ShortBridge]

In my understanding many styles of Wing-Chun are very systematic,in their teachings, strictly adhering to certain principles and Techniques. Not leaving much room to develop alot of self expression of movements and techniqes. ...

My view on wing chun is that is starts out very restrictive, but gets much less so as it goes. 1st form, you don't move your feet and you learn to perform the isolated techniques without shifting or reaching with your shoulders. Each form opens up and restricts less. Late in the system, you appear to be breaking rules that you were taught early, except that they aren't rules, they are principles and a training methodology.

In my circles, the end result should be fluid movement, range, expression that doesn't look or feel boxed in. It may or may not be that way in every lineage, I don't know. There are TON of people with beginner/intermediate skills and understanding of wing chun that I think represent the system to the rest of the world.

CLF is more of a long range style, however we do have a variety of short range techniques.

Wing Chun is a short range style.

...

I don't know a lot about CLF, though I've always respected and been interested in it. You if say it's a long range style with short range techniques, I believe you. I contend that Wing Chun is a short range style with a number of long range techniques. As above, it doesn't always get represented that way, but it's there.