Karate

[S.Teebas]

WC a very cool art and one I consider a "higher" art.

Well thanks rouge (obviously im a WC guy!), but i also want to touch on the point you made further on about people getting comfort from the knowledge that what they practice...they believe is a "Higher art" or more advanced ... I have seen many Wc people who use this idea that becasue the system is good they think: ."well I have an advantage becase my sytem is good so i will take it easy"

BIG mistake.

Because people who train harder in what these people consider a less technically advanced art, well they are going to get their a$s kicked!

These arts such as karate train d@mn hard, and it's the training which makes then VERY effective.

Conclusion: Train hard! (and be realistic)

[Yung Apprentice]

I think to get good reslults, you should do both. Train hard, and discuss.
HHHHMMMMM I think IMA and EMA are not better than one or the other or more advanced than one or the other. I also think that by saying IMA discusses to much, that thats a very stereotypical comment.

[guohuen]

I like the analogy of the four year old and the light switch. It still works even though the four year old doesn't understand how. How only becomes important when it's time to fix the light switch. (Imagine what it would be like if the four year oldwasn't allowed to use the light switch until they could explain electricity!)

[NafAnal]

"Karateka rarely talk about concepts except in the broadest terms, has various kumite which can be robotic and looks primitive against Chi Sao and so far very few karateka that I've talked to can tell you what they'd do against any technique except to say "I'd block it, or get out of the way or hit the guy". But somehow when you spar with them the techniques are there anyway."

Very true. Often their technique is very good as well.

neito:
"they also seem to do huge overly powerful blocks in practise which seem unecessary, but i noticed when they actually fight their block are neat and snappy. anyway, i'm generally impressed with karate."

They "blocks" are not blocks per se. Just as the five elements are not just punches. The drilling fist is also an arm break, so is the age- uke (upper rising block)

Karate techniques in sparring usually revolve around quick slaps and parries. Karate people generally are quite capable of putting shock into an opponent with a slapping "pi" movement as any xingyi fighter. Having said that no one i've seen does it quite as well as xingyi guys...

[Yung Apprentice]

I've been really looking forward to start training in Hsing-Yi.

[omegapoint]

I really can't comment one way or the other as I am biased, but I will say that the term karate applies to many fighting styles. Some are hard. Some claim to be hard-soft. Whereas others at the highest levels, are almost exclusively soft.

As for the detailed explanations given by an internal (soft) vs. external (hard) practitioner. Details can only be given if they are known. Explanations of biomechanics, efficacy, efficiency can only be explained if the instructor has knowledge of modern and ancient scientific combative principles.

I will also say that there is a small minority of karateka who train in something that looks a lot like Chuan Fa (Gung Fu). There are some Kung Fu practitioners who fight and train like "hard" karate stylists. On the whole 95% of the MAs that are taught are modern, sport versions whether it be grappling or striking, Chinese, Okinawan, Japanese or Korean.

BTW Kata, Qigong and fighting are synonymous! If not then you are training in Kickboxing (which is cool in its own right)!

[scotty1]

Hi

Are there really hardcore Karate Dojos in Japan where you will engage in full contact sparring and other hardcore training methods? Does it take a long time to become a black belt?

I'm not interested, just curious.

I defended Karate on another forum as someone was saying that a Karate BB would be walked all over by a one year boxing student.

I said not to judge all Karate by USA Musical Kata competitions and that a black belt from a hardcore school in Japan would more than hold his own against a one year boxing student.

However, I have no evidence of these 'hardcore schools in Japan' I just assumed they exist. Do they?

[Kevin73]

Even in Japan from what I have read and heard from others who have trained there will have schools that focus on fighting and schools that will focus on perfection of self.

Kyukoshin is a japanese style of karate that is very hardcore from what I have read no matter where you learn it, here or there. This is just one example of someplace that trains hardcore.

[Boffo]

Apparently they don't exist.

I know someone who went to Japan to find that 'Hardcore' Karate and found nothing but what you could find in stripmalls here in the USA.

He did find a boxing gym and kickboxing gym. They did it hard contact.

[Budokan]

We have an "Extreme Karate" school here in Jackson, MS. Of course, it's nothing but a marketing ploy to suck in newbies and wannabe armchair warriors. I can't speak for what goes on in Japan, though.

[Mr Punch]

Kyokushinkai over here is ALL fighting.

The drills are simple and short. The techniques are simple and short. Then it's fighting.

Boffo: I think the reason why many people say they don't exist is because they're never advertised as anything different to the norm. Yet I've met many karateka and aikidoka who are revered as having X dan, but most people don't know the difference, just like in the West. Maybe your friend was just unlucky...? You need to be lucky in who you meet to find good training over here.


The rest of the styles here seem fairly tame.

I know a guy Ryan Bow, the number two Shooto fighter here, the champion in Hawaii, who practises Kyokushinkai only. OK, OK so that's sport, and he says his groundwork sucks, but I still wouldn't challenge him to an ass-kicking contest.

[SevenStar]

It exists. I have a friend in kumamoto who was trained that way and still currently trains that way. He does drills and fighting. He works his kata of course, but there only a few that he practices on a regular basis, as he finds them invaluable - taikyoku shodan, sanchin and a few others.

[Shadow Dragon]

Yes, they do exist.

Besides Kara-te there are also many other Arts that are considered soft but have some hard training.
Aikido has some sub-styles of which Tomiki is the most Combat/Fighting orientated and those Guys will enter tournaments.

Most schools like the Kyokushin Dojo's are advertised as full-contact Karate in Japan.

Some of the toughest MA taught in Japan is at the Police schools. Their Kendo & Judo is VERY different and still pre-50's style.

Not sure where the Person was looking for them, if in Okinawa he will find
many a McDojo gathering for the US Troops.
As Mat said not many schools openly
advertise in Asia, so opening the yellow pages will draw many blanks.
Unless you can read the Japanese signs you might actually live next a Dojo and never know it.
Also many Styles share the same facility so multiple styles might be taught, but only the Dojo owning one is advertised.

Peace.

[rogue]

I believe Enshin is a hardcore style.

[shaolinboxer]

I believe "full contact sparring" is a recent introduction to karate, mostly through Mas Oyama's efforts.

Like koryu bujutsu, karate in the classical sense IS kata.

Tomiki aikido is a competition style, created by a student of Jigaro Kano (founder of Judo) sent by Kano to study aikido. Yoshinkan (founded by Gozo Shioda) is another aikido style charaterized by a feeling of practical technique.

I recommend reading the books written by Don Draeger on Japanese martial arts to better understand the evolution and meaning as Kara-te was created, shunned, adopted and modified.