Karate

[sweaty_dog]

Karate sometimes is a good style, there's just a lot of variation. Shidokan, some kempo and some kyokushin are good. The problem is a lot of karate is a kind of children's self esteem and shouting club. When people think of Karate they think of fat guys doing reverse punches and exaggerated blocks, when in reality there are some good kickboxers etc from karate backgrounds.

Have a look at black belt and similar magazines... UFC is on the front page, where it used to be hidden away in the editorial about those nasty dirty men giving martial arts a bad name. The times they are a-changin'!

[dc_jowga]

from tiger schullmen, very funny!

http://www.tsk.com/mediagallery/video/

['MegaPoint]

Originally posted by chen zhen
Oh. did'nt see it that way. The McDojos are anyware, in any country in the world, and it's mostly karate that is taught in these.
I could rephrase the question: what could karate do to gain respect as a REAL, efficient combat art? I don't think personally that they could do anything, if they don't take some good things from other arts as well. It's not a very varied style (or style-s, there's hundreds of Karate styles as well)

I have had the privilege to study "karate" in the PI and Okinawa as well as stateside now for some 20+years. I did boxing and Judo for 8 years prior to that, and I can say that the karate I learned overseas is real and more effective for the streets than boxing and judo. Real combat karate is not Kyokushinkai or Shotokan or Shidokan or whatever modern eclectic Japanese style you can name. Those are pale imitations of Okinawan Bujutsu. they are yen producers and agents for crippling cats.

In Okinawan Karate all ranges and weapons are taught. Newaza or groundfighting is covered but is not the only focus like some very good modern styles (GJJ). With the exception of Matsumura Kenpo (Sport/Kumite inspired "Orthodox" Shorin) and Matsubayashi, all ryuha (subsystems) of Shorin Ryu are very good combat styles (IMHO). I especially liked Shorinkan and Matsumura Orthodox Shorin (Shuri Te) as well as Shobayashi. Higaonna Goju and Uechi Ryu are also real solid fighting styles (for the street, not the a/c'ed-padded ring).

Asking questions like this to a bunch of media programmed sport lovers will get you nowhere. How do they know what they have never experienced? The real karate schools are the 1-2% of schools out there. You have to search for good things. They are not advertised in the Yellow Pages! You will hurt yourself doing Kyokushinkai or hard sparring karate, so what good are they for keeipng you weapon (your mind-body) sharp? These are short-sighted styles, with emphasis on self-mutilation.

Remember that >98% of all arts out there are diluted, superficial and for $$$ making. You'll know if you find a good teacher/dojo. Try your wrestling and boxiing on the sensei and watch him slap you around like a bee-yotch. I hope you guys see the fallacy in just learning sport oriented styles.

BTW where is BJJ and Wrestling now that people have learned to strike at the intermediate level? The element of surprise can be your greatest ally. There are very few martialists that don't know the BJJ tricks or some wrestling nowadays. Showing your arse to the world is stupid. I would have never divulged the secrets of GJJ if I was Rorion, but oh well, I still totally respect their style.

Golden things last. You are right to assume that MOST karate is BS. Most folks can't fight anyway. So even if they learn BJJ, Boxing and Muay Thai a real ruffneck will wax them because of surprise, intent and willpower. I agree that almost all MAs suck and karate is a lot that is taught out there. It ain't really karate, but there are some real fighting karate-ka out there. Trust me. What I do will be around forever (like it's always been), and where will all these other sport styles be in a few years? Think about it...

[Laughing Cow]

Megapoint.

Good post.

Martial Arts like anything go through fads, more so in the west than in the east.

Like with anything something new comes up and Wham you got plenty of shops, schools, etc.

Once the fad dies out usually only the good ones remain, and the REALLY good ones were there before, during and after the Fad but got overlooked for the flashier, fancier fly-by-night stuff.


Cheers.

[sweaty_dog]

Originally posted by 'MegaPoint


I have had the privilege to study "karate" in the PI and Okinawa as well as stateside now for some 20+years. I did boxing and Judo for 8 years prior to that, and I can say that the karate I learned overseas is real and more effective for the streets than boxing and judo. Real combat karate is not Kyokushinkai or Shotokan or Shidokan or whatever modern eclectic Japanese style you can name. Those are pale imitations of Okinawan Bujutsu. they are yen producers and agents for crippling cats.

In Okinawan Karate all ranges and weapons are taught. Newaza or groundfighting is covered but is not the only focus like some very good modern styles (GJJ). With the exception of Matsumura Kenpo (Sport/Kumite inspired "Orthodox" Shorin) and Matsubayashi, all ryuha (subsystems) of Shorin Ryu are very good combat styles (IMHO). I especially liked Shorinkan and Matsumura Orthodox Shorin (Shuri Te) as well as Shobayashi. Higaonna Goju and Uechi Ryu are also real solid fighting styles (for the street, not the a/c'ed-padded ring).

Asking questions like this to a bunch of media programmed sport lovers will get you nowhere. How do they know what they have never experienced? The real karate schools are the 1-2% of schools out there. You have to search for good things. They are not advertised in the Yellow Pages! You will hurt yourself doing Kyokushinkai or hard sparring karate, so what good are they for keeipng you weapon (your mind-body) sharp? These are short-sighted styles, with emphasis on self-mutilation.

Remember that >98% of all arts out there are diluted, superficial and for $$$ making. You'll know if you find a good teacher/dojo. Try your wrestling and boxiing on the sensei and watch him slap you around like a bee-yotch. I hope you guys see the fallacy in just learning sport oriented styles.

BTW where is BJJ and Wrestling now that people have learned to strike at the intermediate level? The element of surprise can be your greatest ally. There are very few martialists that don't know the BJJ tricks or some wrestling nowadays. Showing your arse to the world is stupid. I would have never divulged the secrets of GJJ if I was Rorion, but oh well, I still totally respect their style.
Golden things last. You are right to assume that MOST karate is BS. Most folks can't fight anyway. So even if they learn BJJ, Boxing and Muay Thai a real ruffneck will wax them because of surprise, intent and willpower. I agree that almost all MAs suck and karate is a lot that is taught out there. It ain't really karate, but there are some real fighting karate-ka out there. Trust me. What I do will be around forever (like it's always been), and where will all these other sport styles be in a few years? Think about it...

I don't think longevity is any guarantee of effectiveness. There are people in the jungle who've been killing each other with spears for hundreds of years, that doesn't make a spear better than a gun. I respect the shidokan and kyukoshin guys because they step up and fight, they risk their reputations even if it is in a "padded ring" (I love the way people think getting in the ring with a professional fighter for 12 rounds is somehow a soft option). I'm prepared to believe that there might be some great traditional karate styles out there but really, everyone thinks their own style is the best, it'll take more than one post to convince anyone. For what it's worth, BJJ and wrestling still dominate MMA competition... that's where they are. Maybe they are losing out there on the glass covered streets to gangs of rogue traditional karateka, but in competition they seem to do OK.

[neit]

goofy to say the least. this guy has impressive credentials but his company looks like a joke.

[chen zhen]

thanks for the replies! good posts.
I knew for some reason that the traditional Okinawa-te styles would be brought up, as effective styles. I've seen it before on TV, brutal stuff!

[rogue]

So even if they learn BJJ, Boxing and Muay Thai a real ruffneck will wax them because of surprise, intent and willpower.

How dare you speak such unholy things!

Did the hard sparring karate/TKD thing, I finally got tired of spending so much time injured and not being able to train so I quit. Finally went back to do the same style but I cut back on the sparring to once a week tops. I do spend more time doing drills, which is something that was anathema to me last year but I'm missing less classes and learning more.

Nothing wrong with ring sports but if you aren't going to compete why train at that level?

[Dark Knight]

The word Karate is very generic. Kenpo has a good rep, but its a Karate style.

Ive seen a lot of great karate fighters in the 25 years i have been around. Many do kickboxing, and many people tie the two together.

Karate is not suffering at all, today there are three styles of MA people talk about, Karate, Kung Fu and BJJ. They dont know that there are hundreds of Karate and KF styles.

TKD is grouped with Karate, but its so different it shouldnt (I know of its roots in Shotakan).

People outside of KF do not think highly of it, but they dont know of the true fighting styles and training that goes on, they dont know there are styles similar to Judo.

Ignorance and pride keeps people from seeing the truth. They want to believe that what they do is the best and only way to go. And they dont want to ruin that picture.

['MegaPoint]

Originally posted by Dark Knight
The word Karate is very generic. Kenpo has a good rep, but its a Karate style.

Ignorance and pride keeps people from seeing the truth. They want to believe that what they do is the best and only way to go. And they dont want to ruin that picture.

Thanks for the compliments and civil replies!

I agree with you totally. I hope I'm not guilty of that. I love GJJ/BJJ and I know that in order to be successful in MMAs a solid groundfighting background is essential. Conversely, the strikers are knocking even some Gracies out. Maybe they shouldn't train in something like boxing if they are going to fight NHB. It takes a lot of time in the gym, and lots of roadwork, to be a good boxer. Plus, boxing gloves help with knockouts. Learning to punch with gloves on and learning to K.O. someone on the street or in MMAs is 2 different things. Plus, GJJ takes a lot of training time too.

Kenpo (Japanese for "Chuan Fa") is a very general term. The Kenpo that is of American/Hawaiian lineage is not the Kenpo of Okinawa or Shorinji Kempo of Japan. It is an amalgamation of certain karate styles and other arts, and some of Mitose's and Parker's ideas of how to fight. What I've seen of it is "different". It definitley doesn't look like the Kenpo taught on Okinawa.

The GJJ guys are still fairly successful at NHB competition. I just don't agree with teaching every knucklehead such an awesome style. Oh well. As for the wrestlers being good all-around fighters. They are just like any other super athlete. They train really hard and get really strong and quick. They drill and sweat and get cauliflower ears, bad joints and get killed by gay Du Ponts. Whatever. I do MAs for self-preservation not glory, power trips or money. I also do it because I respect a traditon that many agree is slowly going extinct. If one person is doing something there's always a chance for a revival. 'Nawmean?

['MegaPoint]

Originally posted by sweaty_dog


I don't think longevity is any guarantee of effectiveness. There are people in the jungle who've been killing each other with spears for hundreds of years, that doesn't make a spear better than a gun. I respect the shidokan and kyukoshin guys because they step up and fight, they risk their reputations even if it is in a "padded ring" (I love the way people think getting in the ring with a professional fighter for 12 rounds is somehow a soft option). I'm prepared to believe that there might be some great traditional karate styles out there but really, everyone thinks their own style is the best, it'll take more than one post to convince anyone. For what it's worth, BJJ and wrestling still dominate MMA competition... that's where they are. Maybe they are losing out there on the glass covered streets to gangs of rogue traditional karateka, but in competition they seem to do OK.

When you are old and crippled from MMAs training how you gonna oprotect yourself from that carjacker at the red light? Longevity is EVERYTHING. I'll kick a world class wrestlers ass when he's 70 and I'm 70, 'cause I'll be healthy and he'll be broke up.

No they aren't losing on glass covered streets, but try that BS on concrete and get broke down or a major case of road rash. Real Karate is for fighting only. Kumite is a new invention. Sparring is for folks that are sporty. Sport is not life no matter what the media and western culture tells you. I'm sure GJJ guys and Boxers and the like can take care of themselves in the street, but if you're suffering from the effects of a concussion or torn ACL how you gonna protect you and yours for Joe Mugger? That is the intent of real MAs. No frills, flash and dash or fireworks. No ref whatsoever except for your conscience or lack thereof.

Unless you train in MMAs standup and ground, 6 hours everyday, you'll never be good enough to win those cherished competitions. Most cats are average, and without natural ability, speed and strength, couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag (sorry for the cliche). This is regardless of whether or not they do Shaolin Do or Muay Thai. Just 'cause you practice your jumpshot everyday from the time you are 20 years old 'til you are 50 doesn't mean you'll be a Steve Kerr caliber outside shooter. Are you getting my gist? None of you will EVER be Gracie caliber. And even they get beat...

Shidokan is cool, but K1 really sucks. Bad. I have no respect for a fighting game that showcases (almost exclusively) 200+ lb. beefy boys. Karate is for the meek and weak. Those guys don't need any MAs they just need a little practice in kicking and punching, and some steroids. After all that is what karate is about!

Changing programmed minds is impossible. Take the Jews and Muslims for example. How can one ever "feel" the other, unless they learn empathy? In order to have empathy you'd have to have been there and done that. Try getting a Hindi to eat a juicy steak. See what I'm saying? It's what you know, not what you don't know that dictates your reality. I know both sides of the fence.

I sponsored a Caique JJ seminar in Texas a couple of years back (check the KFO archives for verification if you don't believe me). I know Ryron and Renner personally (homies) and have trained privates at Gracie Torrance. Those guys aren't anyone on here. Not even 7* and Merryprankster could hold a candle to them in the grappling arena. They respect who I am and what I do, and they do think there are good styles of karate out there. They have told me so after meeting me and "feeling" me.

So I won't change your mind and you can't change mine fo' sheez'. I know things a lot of cats don't. I can tell by their responses on KFO, the Unda'ground and ebudo--- Nathan--- just bandwagoneers (like those who jock the Lakers without looking at the fact that they are a 2 man team). Without one clue. What some people know might hurt you. Please believe that.

Oh yeah... Go Spurs, Go!!!

[chingei]

Originally posted by 'MegaPoint

I'll kick A world class wrestlers ass when he's 70 and I'm 70,

Now, that's just beyond pathetic.

[Merryprankster]

I know Ryron and Renner personally (homies) and have trained privates at Gracie Torrance.

Quite true, I couldn't hold a candle to those guys! LOL.

I'm quite clear that what I do is a sport. It's a sport that makes me a somewhat more dangerous opponent than the average joe, but, then again, I never got into this because I wanted self-defense training. I use my wits and perception and don't go to dumb-ass places and that covers most of it.

On the other hand, I don't think that great masters of any sort got that way by doing kata and one step drills. I would have to argue that the concept of sparring is not exactly new. After all, I'm fairly certain that swordsman in Japan probably used wooden or similar replicas to practice, no?

I guess my feeling is that while the ring is not the street, neither is the training hall.

FWIW, a 70 year old wrestler is not necessarily going to be any more broken than a 70 year old karateka. It's the competition and training for competition at it's highest levels that break you down. That's the price you pay for it. Dan Gable? Yup, he's in a bad way. But, there are plenty of work-a-day guys who just do it for fun. Now, reverse it, and talk about a 70 year old karateka ring-fighter and your work-a-day wrestler, and I'll put money that the wrestler is probably less damaged than our former ringfighter.

[sweaty_dog]

Originally posted by 'MegaPoint


When you are old and crippled from MMAs training how you gonna oprotect yourself from that carjacker at the red light? Longeviyt is EVERYTHING. I'll kick A world class wrestlers ass when he's 70 and I'm 70, 'cause I'll be healthy and he'll be broke up.

Longevity as in how long the martial art has been around. Of course avoiding serious injuries is important. There are lots of busted up karateka and lots of busted up boxers, wrestlers etc out there. Maybe I'll get hit by a bus tomorrow. Who knows? There is no set way to train anyway, I can do just do techniques and stretch when I get older.

No they aren't losing on glass covered streets, but try that BS on concrete and get broke down or a major case of road rash. Real Karate is for fighting only. Kumite is a new invention. Sparring is for folks that are sporty. Sport is not life no matter what the media and western culture tells you. I'm sure GJJ guys and Boxers and the like can take care of themselves in the street, but if you're suffering from the effects of a concussion or torn ACL how you gonna protect you and yours for Joe Mugger? That is the intent of real MAs. No frills, flash and dash or fireworks. No ref whatsoever except for your conscience or lack thereof.

Sparring is FUN. It also helps you develop skills in a safe environment, so you don't have to find out whether you can really fight or not when someone tries to crack your head open. If you spar hard enough to get hurt all the time then you spar too **** hard.

Unless you train in MMAs standup and ground, 6 hours everyday, you'll never be good enough to win those cherished competitions. Most cats are average, and without natural ability, speed and strength, couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag (sorry for the cliche). This is regardless of whether or not they do Shaolin Do or Muay Thai. Just 'cause you practice your jumpshot everyday from the time you are 20 years old 'til you are 50 doesn't mean you'll be a Steve Kerr caliber outside shooter. Are you getting my gist? None of you will EVER be Gracie caliber. And even they get beat...

Not necessarily true. A lot of people train less than 6 hours a day. I'm really not looking at winning competitions, just training in a realistic and enjoyable way. Will I be Gracie calibre? Huh? Where did I say I wanted to be better than the Gracies? No, not on the ground. It's not too much of a stretch to think I could strike better than Royce though. I'm also probably stronger than quite a few of them and have more reach. I don't base my faith in BJJ in their results in the ring, I base it on how they train compared to other styles I have tried, and the fact that the people are often a lot easier to get along with.

Shidokan is cool, but K1 really sucks. Bad. I have no respect for a fighting game that showcases (almost exclusively) 200+ lb. beefy boys. Karate is for the meek and weak. Those guys don't need any MAs they just need a little practice in kicking and punching, and some steroids. After all that is what karate is about!

What are you talking about? I'm 200lbs, and I still think martial arts are a great idea. Plenty of lighter guys can school me with superior technique and stamina, and there are a hell of a lot of people heavier than 200lbs out there. I'm not crazy about k1 either, but I respect their fighting ability and the balls they have to get up in front of a crowd and go for it. If you don't like people who are over 190 pounds thats up to you, but they fight much like everyone else. Maybe they should have a lightweight tournament as well, but people like to see the heavyweights knock each other out so that is who they put on stage.

Changing programmed minds is impossible. Take the Jews and Muslims for example. How can one ever "feel" the other, unless they learn empathy? In order to have empathy you'd have to have been there and done that. Try getting a Hindi to eat a juicy steak. See what I'm saying? It's what you know, not what you don't know that dictates your reality. I know both sides of the fence.

Huh? Hindus? Steak? So you can see both sides, but your side is the only one that's right? I've tried TMAs, some of them I respect very much but they don't suit me and I think they are too afraid of change. If you want to do traditional karate, OK, but why put down sport styles which consistantly turn out good fighters? I only mentioned those styles because they are the ones I've seen in action... why should I believe they are far worse than some mystery style that a guy on the internet likes?

I sponsored a Caique JJ seminar in Texas a couple of years back (check the KFO archives for verification if you don't believe me). I know Ryron and Renner personally (homies) and have trained privates at Gracie Torrance. Those guys aren't anyone on here. Not even 7* and Merryprankster could hold a candle to them in the grappling arena. They respect who I am and what I do, and they do think there are good styles of karate out there. They have told me so after meeting me and "feeling" me.

That's nice. I think there are good styles of karate too. That was the whole point of my post.

So I won't change your mind and you can't change mine fo' sheez'. I know things a lot of cats don't. I can tell by their responses on KFO, the Unda'ground and ebudo--- Nathan--- just bandwagoneers (like those who jock the Lakers without looking at the fact that they are a 2 man team). Without one clue. What some people know might hurt you. Please believe that.

Yes, you are no doubt very wise. The funny thing is, I already did respect karate... I just said that there are a lot of lousy karate schools out there. Most karate people would agree with me. If it makes you happier I feel the same way about BJJ players that base their whole game on pulling guard and doing fancy stuff with the gi. If you think "fat guys doing reverse punches and exaggerated blocks" applies to you, then that's a shame, but I don't recall mentioning anything about your style.

Oh yeah... Go Spurs, Go!!!

I know nothing about basketball (baseball, whatever this is).

[Surferdude]

Shotokan Karate says it all!!!
I just went to a master camp this weekend(anyone go???)
there was alot of people there too, people from Trinidad, French Guyana, Russia, and Canada came.
Shotokan has some good fighting skills too, I used to go to a Mcdojo (before i knew what it was ) and the things they taught had no power or effectivness, but now in Shotokan I have much more power. Karate is still popular and very effective.
So everyone should do Shotokan!!!!!!