Karate

[Merryprankster]

Appeal to authority.

Just because he's a tenth dan doesn't mean he's right

[Kaitain(UK)]

I don't doubt that a lot of CMA styles are far more advanced than x-Ryu Karate - but you still have to work very hard to get to that potential - I would guess that the numbers that achieve this are a small percentage of the total that train.

A Karateka can punch and kick and stand-up grapple (in my school anyway) to a reasonable level after 6 months if they've trained properly - by 'reasonable level' I mean they can use it in non-cooperative situations, it wouldn't hold up against a seasoned street fighter. They work hard because everyone in the class works hard - I've been in Tai Chi classes where the majority of the class don't want to work, don't like doing QiGong, don't want to spend an hour refining a single posture. That environment can be very hard to train in as it is all off your own back - sometimes you need your peers to keep you going (when you're tired, when you're frustrated, when you've dipped). I assume this is beacuse TCC often attracts the sort of people that don't want to work - lazy people.

I like Karate, I study Wado Ryu as I like the agility and blending skills it develops - I also find that I can train with anyone in the Karate class and they'll have some intent. In Tai Chi I'm lucky to find one student in fifty that can actually give me something to work with - i.e. skill, power, intention or even just interest.

I dislike the notion that because a system is cleverer than another that it must be superior. Ten years of work on basic (as in punch, kick, throw) striking and grappling should not be underestimated on the basis that another system understands 'higher' concepts. They can still knock you on your arse if you screw up.

Yeah - I like Karate

[Merryprankster]

'higher' concepts. I like that you put this in quotations because it's my firm belief that there is no such thing as a low-level technique/concepts; only low or high level application.

People who think that there are "higher" concepts than others when discussing MA are more or less fooling themselves.

[Nichiren]

There are bad karate and good karate. Some karate styles have been competition infuenced and lost the essentials. With this I mean they practise only one technique kumite and almost no in-fighting.

If I would start with karate I would look for a school that hasn't lost its roots. The following are some of the styles I would choose between depending on the sensei:

Okinawa Goju Ryu (Founded on Nahate)
Nahate
Shorin Ryu
Isshin Ryu (combination of Goju- and Shorin Ryu)
Kyukushin ("New" style that has the right attitude)

Of course this is my opinion and different people have different needs.

I practised sh!to Ryu for a couple of years but I was almost kata:d to death. Hmm, the moderator didn't like that style at all....

/Peace

[Crimson Phoenix]

But still guys, when I heard this I went *shriek*!!
Can you believe it? It's not coming from someone who could be accused of being "pro-CMA"...the guy was 9th dan (he's actually been awarded the honorary tenth but he almost never speaks about it), he is 5th dan of Ju-Jutsu, 3rd of Aikido and 1st of Kendo...he has been devoting his entire life to japanese arts, he brought karate to Europe, obtained his 5th dan during a fight with Yoshinao Nanbu (who is far from being a nobody!), back in the days when dans were awarded with fights...and yet he says that in substance karate is good as start-up, but can do nothing against gong fu in the long run?? He even became so impressed with it that he sought a taiji teacher in China and went on meeting many gong fu masters like Chang Dsu Yao (and many others, but he wouldn't tell). Then he proceed to speak about these chinese masters who overlooked karate as "kiddy gong fu"...and he added with a smile "Growing old I came to realize that chinese were right on many points, and it seems that they might be quite right again on this one"
That was shocking to me...so much lucidity, such a concession from someone who know first hand about combat and japanese arts...he was right on serious,first I thought he was joking, but no...
That was just plain surrealistic for me...

[Kaitain(UK)]

Merry - I actually do believe that there are higher concepts in some arts that others, I just don't necessarily see them as better.

e.g. in Taiji we train spiralling energy - it can make strikes extremely difficult to divert or block as they contain more than one direction of force(bit more to it thant that but I'm not too sure how to explain it) . It's a higher concept than just whacking someone as hard as you can - but there aren't many circumstances where the spiralling cleverness is necessary. I can't foresee a street situation where I'm expecting an opponent to stick to my attacks - consequently the bludgeoning and crude whack is just as effective. I always use spiralling because I've trained it in - but it makes no difference really given the circumstances it is ever going to be necessary to use it.

another example would be BJJ - there is an advanced understanding of grappling in that art, a huge variety of holds, escapes, counters, counters to counters etc etc - but in a real situation a rear naked will probably do it. All the other stuff is cleverness, but it isn't needed (most of the time).

or Escrima - years are spent refining stick and hand skills - but ultimately if you've got a stick in your hand you can just twat someone with it. The other stuff is kind of 'in emergency break glass and use me'.

Karate doesn't advance any fighting idea (kicking, punching, grappling, throwing, weapons) far and beyond any other art - but it makes it all work and it makes it all effective.

Maybe a 10th Dan Karateka wouldn't stand up to a top level Kung-Fu guy (note: i don't believe this to be true)- but does he need to? Is that the only reason to train?

Guess who's been brooding about things like 'why am I training?' recently...

EDIT: Having re-read Merry's post and mine I realise he said what I said in far less words

[NafAnal]

Kanazawa of shotokan karate fame loves taiji. He said something along the lines of karate for the plebs and taiji for super human beings. He's known as one of the most skillful karateka of his time allegedly winning some tournament in his youth with a broken hand.

No karate i have seen teaches the principles of whole body power, alignment etc seen in the internal styles from day one. Most Karate i feel lacks ANY of the fine alignment and power generation seen in xingyi for example. They either just don't have the keys to the knowledge or they are VERY unwilling to teach it.

That doesn't mean the practitioners don't achieve high level power in their blows. They do, they are either just natural at it, had a good teacher who was willing to share the "secrets" of alignment and proper body mechanics, or they have broken the movement down, repeated and conditioned it so much that the blow achieves similar results to those seen in the internal.

I haven't seen a lot of short power in most karate, the practitioners prefferring to slug it out at long range with immaculately timed reverse punches. A lot of karate lacks any kind of short range grappling or locking system- my style especially. They think that a solid punch will do the trick (in most cases this is true but the tool must be developed) They don't have any kind of flow, their techniques being very choppy and linear, their attacks come in short, rhythmic volleys and to be honest- are crude and inefficent in most cases. I'd like to add that there are many exceptions. But many high level guys i have seen still look stiff, innefficient in comparision to other styles. They CAN fight however and because they have trained that one killer tool could stand against high level guys in other arts quite easily.

Shotokan karate doesn't emphasize enough relaxation, it's practitoners will tend to be overly tense, they will talk of it, but mny are unable to do it. (I might add that this is also very true for internal systems e.g. xingyi- many xingyi guys are very guilty of not being able to practice what they preach but for some unknown reason it has a better reputation that karate.)

It also places too much emphasis on the hip, neglecting the waist/gua as a whole. They have somehwere along the line lost the proper training for a good root, and are confused to its purpose. the pulse of motion up the body, that is emphaised in xingyi and is seen in any good striker (including boxers) isn't taught. the tendons, shoulders, scaplula aren't given any mention at low levels.

Karate has the motto "one punch certain death" but i find that most practitoners lack the tool development to carry out this maxim.

Of course these are gross generalisations. Many styles of karate to have softer elements in them as well as some form of breathing exercise and grappling elements. Kyokushin appears to have some breath control exercises. These generalisations were based on the style of shotokan i do, so go ahead and bite me head off. i don't care, this is just what i've experienced.

Karate has a wonderful saying though which says to me that there is good karate out there, and it once had some great fighters and thinkers who were on the same level as any of the great chinese masters of today and before.

"learn the rules, master the rules, dissolve the rules...."

[S.Teebas]

My first MA was karate, and i must say for me it was an EXCELLENT base. I trained at a kyokoshinkai school, the teacher was a national chapion at one stage and his mentality towards training '**** hard!" and has stayed with me till this day.
Every punch, every kick needs to be 100% every time, by the end of class you just collapse from the intense workout.

This is somthing i kind of missed when i traveled over to kung fu. As in, most people took it really easy. I eventually realised that kung fu is very much a mental work out (well the style i do is internal)... and now when i leave class i feel strength in my mind is building.

Theres is heaps in karate that is valuable. I have no idea about a high level karate guy against a high level kung fu man.... because i couldn't see how high kung fu could be when i first started, so unless the level is reached then i can not know how high, or technical karate goes.

Someone mentioned earlier that kyokashinkai has breath control, i can verify this. They do concentrate on breathing, but i dont know to what degreee this is developed (ie is it comparable ot qi-gung??) I recall the advanced students breathing extrememly deeply during katas. (katas?...i assume it was a kata, could be somthing else?...i dunno)

Karate kicks ass!

[shaolinboxer]

"Karate has the motto "one punch certain death" but i find that most practitoners lack the tool development to carry out this maxim. "

A better explaination (IMO) of this maxim is "resolution through single action".

This guy's karate is wicked:

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article...enjiUshiro.asp

[Budokan]

I train in shotokan karate exclusively now and have been for several years. Many years ago I did isshin-ryu but had to move so I quit the style. I don't think karate gets a bum rap, other than from idiots who don't know what they're talking about. Pretty much like KF gets a bum rap--again from idiots who don't know what they're talking about. Leave 'em to heaven, we're doing fine.

However, to be fair if I couldn't take karate I'd still take some sort of MA because it's become too important to my life to totally quit now. I like the workouts and the health aspects to give up MA completely. So, while I absolutely love karate, if I couldn't take it I'd just go on to something else. I mean, it's not the end all and be all of human existence. There are other things in life, like my children and my wife, that come first with me.

I agree that the traditonal books about karate like Mas Oyama's work and Nakayama's "Dynamic Karate" are some of the best out there on the subject. Nakayama's "Best Karate" series is also tops, IMO.

[Yung Apprentice]

One should always have respect for any legitamite MA. Karate, Kung Fu etc. They all have their strengths and weaknesses.

[JasBourne]

Hah, Budokan, I was going to mention Shotokan but you beat me to it. This is my favorite shoto website:

24 Fighting Chickens

I would love to cross hands with this fella someday (not now, he'd pound me without breaking a sweat)

[Shaolindynasty]

My sifu used to take shotokan before he started kungfu. His sensei was some retired army guy from japan. He always told me stories of really brutal sparring that his sensei had him go through. In one instance he was matched against some guy he really didn't like and they ended in some postion where my sifu had him by the neck and the other guy kept hitting him in the kidney. In the end my sifu broke a blood vessel in his kidney and the other guy developed some kind of speach inpediment. That's crazy sparring!

I saw a special on discovery about JMA and I liked the guys from okinawa, I think the style was Isshin Ryu. The sensei there was very strong he broke several boards with his toe, crane beak, and some postion that was supposed to imitate a dragon he used his thumb to break.

I think karate isn't as "soft" as kungfu but they train very hard in the iron body aspect. Somebody already mentioned that in Karate class most people have more intent than in kungfu classes, I think it's true for the most part.

I also don't beleive in "advanced" or "Higher" level technique. I heard Jhoon Rhee say something that sums up my thoughts on this. "Basic technique done thousands of times till it's polished, that's avanced technique".

[Sow Choy]

I agree with Shaolin Dynasty, what's basic usually works best. But I find the more a teacher or style breaks things down, more people think it is advanced. It might help people understand better to know about certain lines and power generation, but breaking it down too much can take away from naturalness of the art.

One thing I have learned is never talk about what an art has or doesn't have, even if you study it. A different branch, style or teacher may prove you wrong. Better to be open minded and always learning then teach. I only speak on behalf of my personal training. There are some very intelligent people on this board.

Who would win a fight between a karateka or kung fu stylist? Why not ask who would win, batman or superman? Silly question right? Martial Art is a tool, nothing more nothing less. The mind is much more advanced, didn't humans create martial art in the 1st place?

Judge the artist if you must, not the art.

Take care all!

[CD Lee]

I watched recently a video on executive self defence by a Karate guy. The Karate guys was incredibly fast, and he showed all the moves to get out of certain situations. These were all Karate style applications.

The main problem I had with this was that the moves were all very inherently violent. Some of the moves were ridiculous for self defence. One had a co-worker placing an arm on someones shoulder complaining. Suddenly the move is to strike to the throat, kick to the groin. This is just not acceptable in the real world in most cases.

What I am saying is you have to be able to have applications that allow you to not put someone in the hospital. A grab to the lapel or shoulders. Well any sap can suddenly throw a kick to the groin, or stike the face with your palm. But now it is a fight, so get ready to fight some more. you should have an application that allows you to release the hold or grab, by taking the opponent off balance, ending the grab, and evading away from the situation.

I have to admit, the Karate looked awesome really. But as I watche the film, nobody could do what the Karate guy was showing as effectively. And the moves could not be done in sequence if the strikes and kicks were followed through. In other words, they were pulling punches, and putting together combinations that could not work if you struck the person full force. For instance, a kick to the groin, strike to the throat does not work, because the groin kick bends the person over, throat is now covered.