IMA and Intellectuals

[Ka]

Why is it that IMA seems to be (I admitt it is changing)the domain of intellectuals?This seemed to start at the turn of 19 century?Is it again a case of Western misinterpretation of how deep these arts are?Is it related to the new age movement?

I have been told that in 18 century China the soilder was the lowest positon one could hold,MA instuction was not much higher.

go for it,but please don't come at me with the "I am as blue collar as you can get deal"because I am making a generalisation and they are not to be appilied to indivuals which would not make it a genernalisation,eh

[Nexus]

My teacher would say, "Tai Chi is either for intelligent people, or it makes people intelligent."

Being that through his observations, it was usually intelligent people that stuck with tai chi, or that the tai chi itself caused those who stuck with it to become intelligent (perhaps referring to body-mind intelligence).

[PlasticSquirrel]

the "magical powers" of internal styles bring in an odd crowd, don't they...?

my guess is that it's because people that choose internal styles usually like to think that they've found some sort of mystical edge that will help them in a fight. unfortunately, most of these people would rather read books than practice, and thus, we have the internal martial artists' online community...

to put it bluntly, internal styles attract nerds. that doesn't mean that everyone's a nerd, though. they also attract groups of other people... but mostly nerds.

don't even try to tell me that you guys don't want magical powers either... i've heard it all on this forum.

*note: don't take this post too seriously. it's just a bunch of half-truths i stretched out.

[Chris McKinley]

I was hanging out after school at the Math Club meeting, swapping recommendations for brands of tape to hold my glasses together and playing some D&D. I realized that my Intelligence was an 18 but that my Strength was a 9 and my Charisma was only a 7. Then I got this really cool beans idea. I could just develop my Psionics with a martial art that has qi in it, and then I could be, like, as powerful as a mind flayer. I could point my finger of death at them and my qi would kill them from across the room.

That, and the fact that I've always had a thing for fashions which include Nehru collars.

[Ka]

LOL ahh good value,I knew i would get some good posts,keep'em coming

[Fu-Pow]

Hmmm... great question. Seeing as I have my foot in both worlds I can make some comparisons.

My Taiji class is very well...um...different. Not really nerds, actually a lot of older "hippy" types. (While I hate to categorize people, I can guarantee that I wear more deodorant than most of these people. hehehe.) The place I study is a "Taoist Institute" so they study not only Taij, but Taoist Chi Gung and Taoist literature. They even have a class to train to be a Taoist priest. Most of these people seem to be into the "spiritual cultivation" side of things. (You gotta remember I live in the Pacific Northwest so lots of "granolies" up here.) I have no idea if any of these people can fight. But my teacher kicks ass. When he shows an application it scares the $hit out of me. Sometimes I feel like everyone at this school needs to take some vitamins or get outside more often (ie everyones very pale!!!)

My kung fu school is the exact opposite. Everyone is pretty "blue collar." Half the class is kids or teenagers. We laugh a lot and sweat alot. My teacher could probably drink me under the table. We perform all the time and my teacher is known as "King of the Lion Dance." Lots of sparring in the school which usually ends up with someone getting a bloody nose. People generally have the attention span of a gnat. And I don't think we've ever done anything that even closely resembles mediation or discussed philosophy.

Totally different experiences.

[jon]

PlasticSquirrel
I was up standing on my chair yelling "yeah tell it brother"
untill your last line...
"don't take this post too seriously. it's just a bunch of half-truths i stretched out."
Then I started to feel a little mean

Seriously that post has a lot more truth in it than i care to think about.
I think internals are thinking persons martial arts in that the use of skill is more important than the use of force.
In many external arts the aim is develop weapons to do distruction to the human body.
Internal styles are often methods of diluting force for the redistribution in the use of combat.
Very different mindset.
If im external ill attempt to roll over the top of you like a steam roller, my thinking is totaly forward and self rightous.
If im internal i will attempt to blend with you and let our forces meet and become one, from here i will try to lead it as will fit. My thinking is not to win only to not be in the line of fire.
One im seeking to distroy, one im seeking to diffuse.
Different mindset different attraction.
Before anyone jumps on me i know that both internal and externals each contain these elements but this is where i personaly believe each of there focus lies.

My personaly overly bigoted belief is that its much better to come to an internal art from an external background. This way you already have skills to do damage and you can properly appreciate the work on energy and force manipulation.

As a disclaimer just so no one mistakes my meaning...
I dont mean that no internal styles have the ability to do nasty damage or take an opponent out quickly. However i would question if there skills are comparable to a good external system in that respect. I think there focus lies in as stated 'enery and force manipulation' for the use in combat. Similar yet different approch to the same goal... Not losing your life.

As a silly example...
Its ancient china [bear with me here] and you are a rebal tasked with attacking a convoy. You must be swift fast and deadly taking out all of the occupents as fast as you can. You are also badly outnumbered.
You are tasked with attacking say the left hand side, your buddies will take the right and rear.
You sneak up and spot your moment to move but there are five armed gaurds all carry swords and looking like they proberly know what there doing. You cant let your buddies down so you have no choice but to supprise attack...
In this situation would you trust a fast mean external art or Tai Chi which relys on your opponents movements?
Just food for thought and badly explained at that, hope someone understood my meaning.
If im dueling on the other hand... ill take internals any day of the week.

[jon]

Chris McKinley
Well im a level 9 drow elf with a dex of 19 and strg of 13 but my int is only 7 to make up for this i have a good charisma of 17.
I am a multiclass fighter\mage although my magic ablitity is quite poor for my level.
I do however have a timestop scroll and a potion of firegiant strength.
I also have a +3 short sword called 'nerd bait' which i use whenever the going gets 'tough'.
Anytime you want to battle my dice will be ready


Man i cant believe i understood your WHOLE post! That just PROVES internalists are nerds

[bearpaw]

I think it also has to do with patience. We get alot of Marines (since your school is right across the street from a Marine base) coming in and taking a couple of try-out classes. Most don't make is half way though an hour class, they just stop and sit down for the rest of class. Now, the only shape I'm in is round but at lest I try thoughout the whole class.

[Chris McKinley]

Hey jon,

My last post reveals more than I'd want. I mean, in order to really make fun of it, I had to know some of the jargon, and in order to know the jargon....well, let's just say there's a facet of my whole self which is a recovering nerd. LOL

Seriously though, RE: "In this situation would you trust a fast mean external art or Tai Chi which relys on your opponents movements?". This statement reflects an incomplete understanding of what Taijiquan is in a real life-or-death combat situation, one that perhaps may bleed over into your perception of the other internal arts as well. Taiji does NOT necessarily rely on the whims, actions, or desires of your opponent. At its nastiest, it can include pre-emptive deadly strikes. Same with Baguazhang and Xing Yi Quan.

Earlier, you state, "In many external arts the aim is develop weapons to do distruction to the human body. Internal styles are often methods of diluting force for the redistribution in the use of combat.". You haven't seen real neijia applications then, very obviously. For example, one of the aspects that attracts me to Baguazhang is the extreme brutality and overkill regarding the destruction of the opponent in many of the applications. The appeal is not to some bloodthirsty part of my psyche, but rather to a desire to have the most effective responses at my disposal should I be faced with a choice of life or death.

RE: "If im external ill attempt to roll over the top of you like a steam roller, my thinking is totaly forward and self rightous.". I don't know about the self-righteous part, but I found this statement humorously ironic in that I am often caught using the term "steam rollering" your opponent in reference to some of the more linear Bagua applications. I've played with many different kinds of external arts from many cultures over the years, and I've found absolutely NOTHING which does it as effortlessly, efficiently and destructively as Baguazhang (I've not trained formally in Xing Yi Quan). The idea here is that if I want to point spar, I'll break out the TKD. If I wanna 'rassle, I'll play some BJJ. If I want to engage in sentry removal and I'm empty-handed, it's gonna be neijia. It's not even a question for me.

My guess here is that your perception, on the whole, is at least close to that of the incorrect stereotype of neijia in America. Namely, that of peaceful, slow, large-circle flowing movements that are ever-obsessed with yielding all the time and are cartoonishly imbalanced toward the Yin. I won't even mention the hippie/New Age/silk pajama aspect or the surfer dewd, bubble gum card philosophy. Now I might be wrong, but I think perhaps only by degree.

Oh yeah, and if I really wanna take out a whole caravan of bodyguards, I'll just cast firestorm and cast incendiary cloud on the resulting blaze. It's the poor man's tactical nuke.

[bamboo_ leaf]

I think that the premise that these arts where common and taught to soldiers is incorrect.

Maybe certain aspects but for the most part I don’t buy it from what I have read and understand.


I think the draw and success of those who play what are called internal arts starts with the basic premise that they are different and cannot be approached in the same way as the other arts.

The problem new age or not as I see it is when people try to duplicate high level skills with out really having the skill. So many things like don’t use force, and the idea of stick, follow release become corrupted with the use of force, speed and tech.

Even among many long-term TC players many don’t or really can’t express the principles well in usage. I have met a few of these.

Not many are willing to give up the idea of force. Even in using no force they view this as another way to use force. Not quite the same as using no force and following.


Of course we wouldn’t want to be confused with that new age hippy TC stereotype, gotta be careful about that.

[TaiChiBob]

Interesting post.. A lot of varied opinions here..

I came to Tai Chi from a long line of external systems (MA bum i guess).. none of which offered that which i was looking for.. I wanted to be able to control (keyword) a situation.. Tai Chi offered that option.. response to a conflict ranged from gentle to brutal ( nice bag o' options).. I went through the "dominate and destroy" training, it lacked soul.. Tai Chi offered me life skills, survival being only one of the many aspects of the Art..

"Intellectuals, Nerds"?.. remember, those are your values.. perhaps, those prejudices are intimidating at some level, and therefore defensive ridicule an appropriate method of containment..

My students cover every imaginable range of social and philosophical concepts, they range from well-to do, to those that help around the school to make tuition.. What they have in common is a sincere desire to learn.. When someone says they have seen long-termers with poor skills, i question the instruction more than the student..

"Magic".. again that is someone's personal perspective.. not some "cosmic truth".. It has been my experience that "magic" is simply natural events we are just learning to process.. and, it is the learning that is its own reward.. Tai Chi didn't get where it is today by past masters yielding to criticsm and ridicule.. The real "magic" is the ability for humans to intuit and process heretofore unconceived concepts.. it's a chilling thought that some of our brightest and best practioners, dismiss "magic" due to lack of experience, or the fear of some aspect of their Art that may elude their narrow perception.. cripe, 200 years ago, with enough batteries and common gadgets of today, you could have ruled the world with your "magic"..

It seems to be just another case of looking for the areas of contention, rather than building on the wealth of commonalities.. "magic, intellectuals, nerds", just more buzz-word distinctions that exist in the mind of the observer, prejudices that weaken rather than strengthen the Art..

Tai Chi is as much a valid martial art as any.. the weaknesses are in the perceptions of observers, not in the experiences of the dedicated..

Be well.. (just some thoughts from a '60s relic)..

[Nexus]

There is no magic, only tricks.

The person who performs the "magic" knows the trick, so it is not magic for them.

Like if you can juggle oranges, try juggling three in one hand. When you can juggle them with no hands, the trick is mastered.

- Nexus

[bamboo_ leaf]

For me life is full of magic, a trick is something that can be learned directly.

Magic has a quality of uncertainty you may or may not get it.
If you wait it may revile it self.

That’s the magic.

[jon]

Chris McKinley
* I forget sometimes that im not capable of properly educating the masses with my own bigoted belief structure.
Im only new to the internals so still havent really seen a lot and im sure my comments reflect my lack of exposure. Still im just here to learn and spout of my own opinionate crap every now and again to. Your comments are well noted and i will think a bit more closely before posting next time... properly, maybe, not very likely but ill give it a go!

P.S any self respecting caravan would be decked out with the latest in fire resistant armor and mages using globes of invlunerablity. You would also need to get around the +3 enchanted weapons with the 35% chance to inflict open wounds. Not to mention the escort of ice trolls and beholders.
Ok im gonna shut up now before i reveal myself to much.
Casting shadow door and stepping though!