2-Man-forms

[Crimson Phoenix]

Sharky, I know you urinate on them, actually YOU and your comments gave me the idea about the thread

OK, they are very common in southern styles...for example we have several (barehanded or weapon) in white crane, in Phenix Eye fist (cf Cheong and Draegger's book) etc...
What's your opinion about them? Do you know any? What about weapon 2-man sets? Which do you prefer and why??
Any opinion and comments warmly welcome

I'll start: I believe they are very useful...I personally believe in the value of solo forms...so if you believe in these, I don't see how you could not find value in 2-man sets...
I think they teach you or at least can make you grasp the importance and application of a crucial factor of combat: sense of distance.
Practicing a solo form is nice...but practicing a two-man set helps you realize when you're in hitting range, when you're in danger, what targets are available and convenient in a given situation, what you are doing wrong that makes you expose a target on you, when you are safe, etc...
I alos think they teach you timing and rythm of fighting although to a lesser extent.
Other benefits could be, depending on the set itself stepping training (related to timing and distance, much better training than just training alone) or conditioning...it also help you realize the actual feeling of blocking or being blocked by a real human "opponent". It's stupid to say it, but even if we all know that a human body is not like a wooden dummy or heavy bag, many of us have been surprised of their first contacts with an opponent and how unique a human body feels when you hit (or when you are hit, if you're unlucky, or drunk, or lame hehehehehehehe).
I personally know one barehanded one, I'm learning one staff vs staff directly derived from our beginner staff solo form, and I know half of San Cai Jian, a unique sword form in the sense that it's a solo form that when cut at a precise point matches itself, enabeling you to practice it as a two-man form.
I know that after that, there is a barehand vs staff 2-man set directly derived from the solo and 2-man staff form too, and other armed ones. We are also encouraged at one point (but I'm not at this level, and I won't be before many years heheheheh) to create our own matching forms, pondering deeply about combat values and applicability (ie: it's not a form just for looks, or to do like in Hollywood)...

OK all, I'm waiting for your enlightened views and comments!!!!

[anton]

I agree with you completely on this one.
Its when you get into 3 and 4 man forms that the benefits of learning the form seem to diminish in my mind (in theory at least - I've never actually learned/practiced one).

[Tainan Mantis]

In his report to the throne at the end of the Ming he details the 2 man spear set called 6 Harmony spear.

It is obvious that there must be a way to practice with deadly weapons without killing off all of your partners.
This theory of prearranged sets is the answer.
It has been used for centuries by weapons practitioners which seems to testify to its usefulness. If they had died using this method of 2 man forms and drills how could they pass it on?

But it is only part of the picture. The 2 man set must be broken into short drills and the students must at some point be able to move freely from one drill to another.

People sometimes doubt the usefulness of these 2 man sets.
That may be because learning the 2 man set was the final goal of practice as opposed to a basic stage.
This is especially true with some more modern 2 man sets that are designed to be flashy for exhibition or tournaments.

The straight sword set you mentioned, san tsai jian, is one of the most well known.

I don't know if anyone has preserved the complete 2 man set of 6 Harmony spear, but our Shaolin spear, very similar looking still has the entire 2 man. This is not to be confused with the Shaolin spear done at the modern Shaolin temple.

6 Harmony is a popular name for 2 man sets.
There is also 6 Harmony stick and Pan Long stick(not to be confused with pan long stick jin chiang)which fights not only stick, but also longer weapons like spear.

The 6 Harmony stick is arranged similar to 6 Harmony spear.

Also there is 6 Harmony double broadsword solo and partner. This weapon set is unique because in this 2 person set both people do the same moves at the same time.
There are only a few of these type techiques in san tsai jian.
Until a student learns 2 person DBB vs DBB the reason why the blade stick to the body won't be apparent.
These techniques of DBB are all the basics for single broadsword 2 person practice.

Most weapons partner sets involve 2 dissimilar weapons. Although it is fun to do and looks good to it is not possible to grasp the fundamentals of the weapon when fighting a different type of weapon.

So the spaer student should master drills against spear and the broadsword student should master drills against broadsword before learning broadsword vs spear.

[Ish]

the only problems i can find with 2 man forms is either not having someopne the practice with or having someone who is crap.

[shaolinboxer]

I think there is much to be learned from 2 man sets, and I am particularly interested in rhythm.

When performing these sets you know what is coming next, however you cannot just proceed into the next movement blindly. You need to wait for your partner's initiaitive (or express that initiative if that is your role). Each movement should be the result of an offensive or defensive tactic relative to the movements of our partner. Not late, not early...just in the right rhythm. As you improve, you attacks should become more and more sincere (this requires a measure of control so that even a sincere attack is not so over commited as to be irreversable). In this way we can build the qualities inherent in combat without having to smash or stab each other.

When you sum up all of your 2 man sets, you should have an excellent guide for understanding the relationships between attack and counter attack/defense.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Keep it coming, guys, it's the kind of answers I like!!
Shaolin, indeed it is all in the way you practice it...of course you'll know what technique your "opponent" will perform, so in order to have a good training that you can apply in sparring, I believe you have to wait until you see the attack coming and focus on it, then do your part...if you just anticipate because the both of you know the moves it becomes much less useful and interesting.
Tainan, thanks again for your wise posts...I totally agree with you...I really like san cai jian, and even though both partners practice different techs most of the time (except for the small part before the roles change where there's three stab-evade-cut practiced by the two), what I like about it is that you can really break down some nice drills...circling around each other endlessly, or evade-counter evade counter while you and your "opponent" mutually chase each others.
I totally agree with you on the fact that you won't gain much of a two-man set with different weapons if you don't have a clear grasp of each weapon's "philosophy" independently...
Ish, you raise a problem that I believe to be universal in MA: having a good partner, one who won't kill you, yet will not let you get illusionned as well on what works and what doesn't...
Anton, I would say so, but there are no three or four man sets in our curriculum and frankly I wouldn't want to learn one...battling against three or four men like it were a usual fight isn't suitable for me hehehehehhe

[Ky-Fi]

I practice the 2-man Yang Taiji set as taught at my school, and I agree this adds a lot to understanding the art----particularly circling and accessing the "open doors" for attack and realizing where your own doors are open. I also like the fact that this gives you a good mix of striking, throwing and joint locking apps, and ideas about gaining advantageous body position. I try to practice both sides of this as solo sets when I don't have a partner, just to remember them, but it's definitely not the same as working with someone else. I think it's hard to explain, but it just kind of gives you a feel of the flow of how you fight with the art that you don't quite get from form practice or from practicing individual techniques, IMO.

Like the form though, it takes a good deal of time just to memorize the moves before you can begin refining your technique. I'm going to be taking a weekly class just on this 2-man set starting in April, and I'm really looking forward to it!

[Tainan Mantis]

In double broadsword vs double broadsword is a drill for 3 people.
Hopefully I'll never find how effective it is.

All three people are walking around in circles. The lonely person must go in the direction so that the far person is behind their friend and thus unable to hit the lonely person.
In other words, the lonely person must walk in a way to prevent himself from being surrounded.

If the lonely person goes front door he must use a certain footwork, but if he goes back door it is another footwork. Since he is being chased by 2 people he doesn't have time to look at his enemy's feet. This forces him to learn to use the proper footwork instinctively.