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Thread: Multiple attackers

  1. #46
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    Thumbs down

    That was mean and dumb!!

  2. #47
    Please kindly critique my multiple attacker skills!!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_8iLKkwNTM

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by MARTIALSTUDANT
    That was mean and dumb!!
    you know im strongly against dog and cock fighting, but those are bugs and somehow i care less.

    hehe ... i said cock.
    where's my beer?

  4. #49
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    Multiple attackers

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaolin Wookie View Post
    The strength of MMA is in that it exposes you to so many fighting tempers and styles, and pairs you up with people who have different strengths. The weakness in TCMA (if you don't look around outside of your school), is that you only ever practice or expect to counter/encounter all the techniques in your arsenal, delivered with your particular emphasis and principles, etc. In effect, you fight clones of yourself.

    The reason the MMA fighter would dominate, is that he won't expect as much coming in, because he knows a punch can come in at every angle, and doesn't have to protect a centerline for the sake of the centerline. A kick can be used multitudes of ways, and doesn't always use the same striking surface. But as soon as you're engaged, he can generally predict your temper, striking method, and weakness, b/c he's exposed to so many stylisms, he has to be able to do this in order to keep up to tempo in his art.

    The good thing about a quality TCMA guy is he knows his body better, and generally has no doubt as to what to do in certain situations, and can execute quickly and effectively. The bad thing about a quality TCMA guy, is if you get him out of his comfort zone (ground, certain ranges, etc.), he's treading unknown waters and pretty much is making it up as he goes along b/c he's so stuck in his preconceived notions as to what it is he should be doing. He'll wind up stumbling over himself.
    Quote Originally Posted by RonH View Post
    One of the hallmarks of a long lasting style is its adaptability 'on the fly' when the unknown does happen upon the fighter. If the underlying principles of any attack can be countered effectively, regardless of whether you have seen a specific attack before or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaolin Wookie View Post
    But the principles of kungfu single out certain attacks as inefficient, and therefore cut them out of usage. Strangely enough, I see many of these in regular usage during MMA bouts. If you cut them out of usage, you won't see them coming at you from your classmates.

    Because a technique doesn't seem to fit in with a system or style, it doesn't make it inefficient. It means that it doesn't fit in. CMA guys say...the method of power generation is weak. You really want to do such and such, change the angle, etc. But if you don't have that kind of freedom of waist and leg motion, you've got to be able to pack power in your punch with good ol' Irish grit and sinew. But really, all strikes should fit into every system, because you're fighting.

    That is, if you want to do more than just dance....
    [QUOTE=RonH;791904]Seeing chicks in bikinis and butt shorts makes volleyball games worth watching. If you like dudes, there's the well toned and buff guys with their shirts off.



    I would say possibly some styles, but not all.

    [quote]Because a technique doesn't seem to fit in with a system or style, it doesn't make it inefficient. It means that it doesn't fit in. CMA guys say...the method of power generation is weak.

    As an internalist, I'd say all purely external arts don't have as much power as they could have, to be more accurate and specific about the weakness.



    There are many places that you can get power from that don't use legs or the waist. It won't be as powerful a strike, but you don't always need brick and mortar bursting power to get a one up on the other guy. Striking with the shoulder or a head butt are good options.



    Exactly. If you can't do it, there's something wrong. It may not be something that the student does and it wouldn't necessarily mean that that student is an idiot. 'Doing something wrong', in the sense I'm using it, is free of any condescension and mockery. If you grab one item off a table by accident, as you pass by and you really meant to grab what was next to it, that doesn't mean you're an idiot.



    True, but I've found that if you really need to conserve your energy, as you deflect multiple attacks in quick succession, you should treat the fighting as mostly a dance. It's less about ending the fight then and there (especially when attacked by a mob) and more about redirecting/neutralizing incoming attacks with very little effort on your part. It sometimes comes off as the martial art version of ballet. Just a tiny tiny brush or a very light slap on the incoming limb to move it the inch or less to get it out of the path that it's in, which is the one that's gonna make contact with you.

    After that, it's a multitasking approach involving deflections with your arms and upper body, while you do femoral kicks and knee strikes/ letting gravity pull your body down, as you step on the side of the knee and press inward/outward a little.
    Quote Originally Posted by RonH View Post
    Relying on only the 'tried and true' of fighting?
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaolin Wookie View Post
    Doing whatever it takes to win, with whatever you can make work.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaolin Wookie View Post
    Or, in other words:

    Not this
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    Originally Posted by RonH
    as you deflect multiple attacks in quick succession, you should treat the fighting as mostly a dance. It's less about ending the fight then and there... It sometimes comes off as the martial art version of ballet. Just a tiny tiny brush or a very light slap on the incoming limb to move it the inch or less to get it out of the path that it's in, which is the one that's gonna make contact with you..
    Quote Originally Posted by RonH View Post
    Okay, so you advocate huge, needlessly spent energy consuming moves when fighting off multiple attackers (and I don't mean if you've got the opportunity to run). You also advocate you need to treat each incoming limb, as if it was a wrecking ball because there's just no way you could ever knock off course an incoming limb or stick or bo or sword or nunchuck or halberd etc. etc. with just a tiny bit of effort because there's just no need to move it just a tiny bit off course, so it doesn't hit you. You're advocating knocking that sucker, like line drive out to center field and going into the stands where there's no way the outfield guys could even hope to catch that thing, unless they've got a jet pack.

    Sure, I'd love to see that done by any external artist for any extended period of time where they have no rest between each incoming attack. You've got a better chance of doing that if you're a Navy Seal than a lot of martial artists or MMA people.


    Quote Originally Posted by Shaolin Wookie View Post
    Do as much damage as you can, while you can.
    Or you don't do the 'a running bull in a china shop' way of fighting.

    The thing about defense is, no matter how good you are, you're going to get hit sooner or later. And if you're fending off multiple attackers, if you get hit once, it's game over. Especially if you're playing a game of inches.
    Which would you prefer to have? Waste larger amounts of energy sooner, making yourself tired sooner and allowing the others to catch you at a bad moment? Any of them just need one half second against you. Or do you want to extend the time you've got till you can find a way to kick all their asses? My way doesn't gaurantee it for you, but it gives you a better shot at winning in the long term.

    One of the benefits of external MA is that you have good conditioning, b/c it's part of your training, and you get used to taking hits, so you can bear them better.
    In the sense of brute force against brute force. In internal arts, absorbing the energy and letting the soft tissue of your body wrap around the incoming object, much like the body of a drunk against a steering wheel in a car accident, lets your body survive the attack with less trauma because the body is more bendable.

    And if you really rock your blocks with your forearms, you can damage their arms with your defense, and add that element of offense to your defensive maneuvers.
    Sure, it's always good to screw up your arms early on in a fight, especially against multiple people.

    Anything is better than remaining the calm center of your own universe, because it's not your universe.
    HAA!!! I laugh at this notion. Whatever their motivation, whatever way they decide to attack you, you are still being attacked. All their eyes and neurons are on you getting pummeled and sometimes, destroyed. You are the center of their universe for the length of time the fight is happening.

    So, who dictates what happens in that universe? Do you want it to be the ones attacking you? I like being proactive with my universe.

    Better by far to divide and conquer, if you have no choice. I mean viciously. Barrel into one, use everything, elbow, knee, kick, bite, spit, punch, grab, choke, rake, claw, and destroy. Then use that one as a shield. Go for the weakest one, so long as he's not the expendable guy in the group. Me, I'm going for the skinny one, b/c I know I can bowl him over no prob with a shoulder tackle, then stomp on him and lessen the odds. It is, in fact, end the fight as quick as possible.
    I've found it's best to go where there's the highest concentration of people of the attacking group. Being so close together, it limits their abilities. That's when you take one and drop him. I prefer going after the bigger ones, especially the one that seems to be the leader.

  5. #50
    Here, RonH demonstrates his theory
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  6. #51
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    [QUOTE=RonH;791943]
    Quote Originally Posted by RonH View Post
    In the sense of brute force against brute force. In internal arts, absorbing the energy and letting the soft tissue of your body wrap around the incoming object, much like the body of a drunk against a steering wheel in a car accident, lets your body survive the attack with less trauma because the body is more bendable.
    Remind me to use this excuse if I ever get caught DUI. "Buwt ophisser....ith wuz phor meye owne perthsonawl thafety......dephenthive driphing, u knowe."

    I laughed at this, and concluded that you have to be a troll. I mean, come on dude.....are you telling me that my punching bag wins every fight? Sure, it's still hanging there, but if I pull out the stuffing and then stuff you inside, do you think you'd fare as well?

    [QUOTE=RonH;791943]
    Quote Originally Posted by RonH View Post
    Sure, it's always good to screw up your arms early on in a fight, especially against multiple people.
    If you work out and aren't a *****, and have some forearms, you'll damage his, not yours. And even if he's got hard forearms, it still won't do much more than sting.

    [QUOTE=RonH;791943]
    Quote Originally Posted by RonH View Post
    HAA!!! I laugh at this notion. Whatever their motivation, whatever way they decide to attack you, you are still being attacked. All their eyes and neurons are on you getting pummeled and sometimes, destroyed. You are the center of their universe for the length of time the fight is happening.
    I laugh at your laughter at this notion. They're not getting pummeled. In fact, their hands are just barely missing your head by inches, what with your deft touches.

    Quote Originally Posted by RonH View Post
    So, who dictates what happens in that universe? Do you want it to be the ones attacking you? I like being proactive with my universe.
    Then you have to attack and do damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by RonH View Post
    I've found it's best to go where there's the highest concentration of people of the attacking group. Being so close together, it limits their abilities. That's when you take one and drop him. I prefer going after the bigger ones, especially the one that seems to be the leader.

    You do that. But the little guy probably is the ringleader, or else the big guys wouldn't be there, or he wouldn't. I've never seen a hossed up dude say to his 130 lb. girlie-framed friend: "Let's go get that guy! The two of us!"

    Maybe if you stomp his little buddy, he'll stop and attend to the little guy's wounds. And if you lose, well, at least you got your ass handed to you by the big guy, and not the skinny little dweeb.
    Last edited by Shaolin Wookie; 09-02-2007 at 12:42 PM.

  7. #52
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    I'm going to conclude, if it's alright with you, that you're used to push hands and haven't really scrapped with someone hardcore. You are not the calm center of your own universe, unless your partner allows you to be. Part of fighting is putting your opponent out of his comfort zone. If he stays in it, he's the one on the offensive, throwing bombs.

  8. #53
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    [QUOTE=Shaolin Wookie;791948]
    Quote Originally Posted by RonH View Post

    Remind me to use this excuse if I ever get caught DUI. "Buwt ophisser....ith wuz phor meye owne perthsonawl thafety......dephenthive driphing, u knowe."
    I did hear one underage kid, after he got caught in the woods where a party was, said to the cop 'I just got out of the shower'. The cop laughed heartily, said something and then, let the kid go with a warning.

    I really did hear that.

    I laughed at this, and concluded that you have to be a troll. I mean, come on dude.....are you telling me that my punching bag wins every fight?
    Are you punching holes in your bag with every punch? If you are, you're buying a really crappy brand of bag. It's only after long term use that the bag would need to be replaced. Now, image in the very short term, if the bag could punch back.

    Also, if you don't take care of your hands before and after punching the bag, your flesh will get seriously damaged, especially if you don't let it have time to heal. The same is true if you use a tree instead of a bag.

    Sure, it's still hanging there, but if I pull out the stuffing and then stuff you inside, do you think you'd fare as well?
    First, I'm very flexible and I've had my fair share of punches, kicks, knees, elbows, etc. But, I delibereately let my body wrap around them because I let my body go limp some times and it isn't a problem. Plus, the times when I really get hurt, I do heal faster than most people because of my ever exponentially increasing hyperactivity/metabolism.

    Take a look at a lot of drunk drivers that get into accidents. Those that have been drinking often get out of the car with barely a scratch. Sometimes, not even that. They might just have a bump. Those that get hit are the ones that aren't drinking and their bodies stiffen up from the shock that the force of the impact reverberates throughout their body more strongly, causing more damage.

    Take sound. Solid matter, especially rock, is a stronger conductor for sound than air. The denser the medium sound has to travel through, the faster it travels. There are other things, like temperature that effect the speed, but it's still a fact speed is higher with solids than liquids or gases.

    If you work out and aren't a *****, and have some forearms, you'll damage his, not yours. And even if he's got hard forearms, it still won't do much more than sting.
    Not every single time. What if he's got more developed arms then you? Your arms will be in worse shape than his.

    I laugh at your laughter at this notion. They're not getting pummeled. In fact, their hands are just barely missing your head by inches, what with your deft touches.
    A miss is still a miss. It doesn't matter if it's inches or feet. You can keep them as close to you as you want and slip around them and use them as a shield against one of the other attackers, as we agree upon.

    Then you have to attack and do damage.
    Even if you do work out hard, there's no amount of strength training or conditioning that can make a knee or the throat just as strong as a femur, if you are conditioning your entire body. If your conditioning includes what you can do with the femur, you'd have to let that particular part of your conditioning lag behind and that isn't a good idea.

    You do that. But the little guy probably is the ringleader, or else the big guys wouldn't be there, or he wouldn't.
    That isn't always true. The big guy could believe in strength in numbers and still be the leader. When it comes to leaders, their followers are often the people that are around in the same area and they aren't always the pick of the litter.

    I've never seen a hossed up dude say to his 130 lb. girlie-framed friend: "Let's go get that guy! The two of us!"
    You need to get out more then. People that have been small and weak their whole lives will often use their brain. A big guy with strength and brains can team up with someone that's got brains and speed.

    Maybe if you stomp his little buddy, he'll stop and attend to the little guy's wounds. And if you lose, well, at least you got your ass handed to you by the big guy, and not the skinny little dweeb.
    So, reputation appearances after the fact are important when you fight? That's something you could do well to be without. Let's say you did. The skinny little dweeb might have a trick up his sleeve or a gun.

    I'm going to conclude, if it's alright with you, that you're used to push hands and haven't really scrapped with someone hardcore.
    No, I'm speaking from experience. There have been many times when I've gone up against varying amounts of people. Some have not liked me for legitimate reasons (at least to them) and that's why they did it. Others have been because they thought I was a good target or just because.

    You are not the calm center of your own universe, unless your partner allows you to be.
    Wrong again. The type of center I am for my universe is what I choose to be. The other person or people can do whatever they want. How I react is still up to me. I've worked a very long time to eliminate the hindering reactions that come out of fear and uncertainty. They are far far less an issue today then way way back then when I first started.

    Part of fighting is putting your opponent out of his comfort zone. If he stays in it, he's the one on the offensive, throwing bombs.
    Loosing is still an option, while one remains within their comfort zone. Loosing after not making any mistakes happens. When both/all opponents are in their respective comfort zones, it still comes down to skill and availability of opportunities.

    Multitasking is very important when fighting multiple people, especially when they have some skills of their own.

  9. #54
    Ron- please post some clips of you doing anything you are advocating.

  10. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by RonH View Post
    First, I'm very flexible and I've had my fair share of punches, kicks, knees, elbows, etc. But, I delibereately let my body wrap around them because I let my body go limp some times and it isn't a problem. Plus, the times when I really get hurt, I do heal faster than most people because of my ever exponentially increasing hyperactivity/metabolism.
    BS


    let me elbow you on the face and lets see how well ur face copes k ?

    no the reason you are limp is because you had your arse kicked mate

    seriously if u have ever taken a full on kick to the ribs you would know that u dont just go
    oh well and go limp

    Take a look at a lot of drunk drivers that get into accidents. Those that have been drinking often get out of the car with barely a scratch. Sometimes, not even that. They might just have a bump. Those that get hit are the ones that aren't drinking and their bodies stiffen up from the shock that the force of the impact reverberates throughout their body more strongly, causing more damage.
    yes the reason ppl get hurt in drink driving accidents is because they were too stiff

    if they had just loostened up a bit and relaxed that large ball of metal heading their way at 60 mph would have merely bounced off them
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  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by golden arhat View Post
    BS

    let me elbow you on the face and lets see how well ur face copes k ?
    That would require me to relax my facial and neck muscles and made sure my jaw was slacked, if I really wanted to take the force. It'd also involve making sure my spine was loose, as well as my upper body. Having my lower body loose, too, would help, but it isn't really necessary.

    no the reason you are limp is because you had your arse kicked mate
    The reason I'm limp is because I've done taijiquan for many years.

    seriously if u have ever taken a full on kick to the ribs you would know that u dont just go
    oh well and go limp
    I've been kicked in far worse places than the ribs. If I'm able to see an attack coming and I'm unable to avoid it, I let my body go limp and 'roll' with the hit. What's so hard to think that someone could have developed that kind of reflexive action?

    yes the reason ppl get hurt in drink driving accidents is because they were too stiff

    if they had just loostened up a bit and relaxed that large ball of metal heading their way at 60 mph would have merely bounced off them
    You really do need to examin accidents.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by golden arhat View Post
    BS



    no the reason you are limp is because you had your arse kicked mate


    ROFLMAO Well said!!

    Have to say. In my limited stint fighting in SanShou matches back in the day. I did go limp everytime I got hit hard. One time I even ended up napping for a few seconds.

    So there may be a correlation between getting hit, going limp and absorbing the follow up shots.
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  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by RonH View Post
    The reason I'm limp is because I've done taijiquan for many years.
    I'd suggest Viagra...

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by RonH View Post
    That would require me to relax my facial and neck muscles and made sure my jaw was slacked, if I really wanted to take the force. It'd also involve making sure my spine was loose, as well as my upper body. Having my lower body loose, too, would help, but it isn't really necessary.
    Sounds like a good way to get a dislocated jaw. Me, I'd rather put my arm in the way and not get hit in the face to begin with.
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    He did want to know how I'd do against an elbow to the face.

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