Multiple attackers

[sunfist]

There are plenty of talented internal martial artists. The sad part is that for every one of them, there are at least 10 hippies.

Like showertime in prison, it hurts you deeply at first, but you learn to stop caring.

[RonH]

i knew it from the beginning
i want off the status pending list
lol

There has never been any status pending list for any reason. Knifefighter and cjurakpt are in no position to say whether a list for anything regarding my views exists.

I think that list would include the names of 90% of the people who have read the thread. Anyone who thinks that they can win a fight by being all limp has never been in a fight. Period.

If you had read the reasons why I had stated before on why I'm no longer speaking to them, that would make the idea that automatically 90% of the people that have read this thread would be on such a list is a rush to judgement.

Also, I must point out that you have used a strawman. It is not my position you can win a fight by being entirely limp the entire time. The position I take uses, as one facet, the idea that 4 ounces can be used to defeat 1,000 pounds. Whether against a single opponent or a dozen, this facet still applies. But, keep in mind. It is only one of several that need to be used for success.

If you reread what I have written and remember the context of what it has been written in, it should be easier to understand.

i fail to see the difference between u and a troll in fact if anything u've made me believe that u are a troll even more

Thanks to Shaolin Wookie, there has been 2 entirely different definitions of a troll. If you post what your definition is, it'll be much easier to explain. At the moment, there is no frame of reference.

i think you are the one with the limited perspective
what kind of martial artist throws concepts such as strength and weight out of the window
accepting just his own view

1) Being an individual, I do have my own perspective, which is limited. However, it is far less limited than say Knifefighter.
2) I have done no such thing when it comes to strength and weight. If you read what I wrote to SimonM, as well as reread what I've already written in this thread and pay closer attention to exactly what I've said and the context it was said in, you will see that I have been talking about energy conservation, but I have never stated or even implied that strength and weight are meaningless when it comes to fighting. If you got that I did, that's your own fault. Not mine.

almost everyone has sparred with a western european
they make up most of the population of western europe and north america
u never said what art they did

the same with middle eastern fighters

middle eastern fighters doing what ?

There has been a wide range of styles and methods for each subgroup. In the interest of brevity, I named it by region.

wrestlers and grapplers wait arent they the same thing ?
its like sayn ive sparred with boxers and punchers

Not quite. How I define it has grapplers focusing more on joint locks than not. You're more likely to see someone throw someone against the elastic ropes of a ring and the thrower bouncing off another set to help build up speed to do a jump kick at the thrown guy with wrestlers than grapplers, in my experience.

I've never heard of sumo grapplers. They push people out of the cirlce. They also don't call high school and college wrestlers high school and college grapplers. What they do involves more flipping people over and pushing them away. To me, wrestling is more an overarching term, which can involve grappling. You can attack the legs in grappling (submission wrestling) and freestyle, but you can't in greco-roman. And greco-roman is still wrestling.

jma ppl ?
oh i see
hip to fist karate ppl ?
oh wait no aikidoka who are just as deluded about fighting as you are !

Your continued use of fallacious logic doesn't support your position. Please refrain from using such thinking in the future.

OMG I NEVER NEW MEL GIBSON DID TAIJI !
wow i'm so honoured

Was this supposed to get me rilled up? By calling me the name of a racist and an alcoholic? If that was your intention, you failed miserably at it. Because of your failure, I'd suggest a new tactic, which is to not use it. All it does is make you petty and small.

lol u said wanker even tho ur not english
hhahah

I am English. Part of my ancestry is an Irish/English mix. The only regional group I'm not is whatever region you want to call eskimos and Asian. It'd be best if you didn't jump to conclusions like that. They do nothing to help you.

u try it

I did do it. That's one reason why I'm where I am today.

and post a video of you trying it

When one has already attained something, there is no need to post a video showing that they are trying to accomplish something. It's already happened.

right now if u doubt him
go to an mma class
and challenge someone there to a fight on film and put it up here
ok ?
other wise
STFU

No.

I never said I doubted Shaolin Wookie ever felt that way. We have all felt that way before. Your continued use of strawmen will not show your position to be right because it is inherently faulty from the get go.

no

no they wouldnt

simple fact

Right, because you're the end all and be all of what is successful in the ring. To hell with what anyone else thinks. Sure, keep thinking that.

since you so obviously do

POST A GOD **** VIDEO !

And at this point, I'm supposed to trust that if I did, I wouldn't be accused on not being the one in the video or accused of not using any internal principles, only the external ones? Uh huh.

Tho i respect the IDEA hes trying to input. I think from previous EXP going limp leads to a unsatified opponent Rofl.
Honestly limp gets you injuried. From my point of view its a happy medium not limp but not rock hard. During a proper fight the body unless you have alot of exp and a good mental mindset will be fairly tense prepared for the hits. But if he could PROVE his theory well thatd be better then all talk. The idea everyone elser it seems is putting forth is proven his not so much.

Ps just my thoughts on this

What I would need to do is show the underlying principles and if they are attainable.

1) Having a higher elastic limit lets your body take more punishment before failure. Take silly putting. It's very soft and bendable. You can smash it with a quick strike with a hammer and it breaks up into tiny pieces, but you can put those pieces back together and have the ball of putty once again.

There are some materials that are brittle and have a low density, while they are hard. They'll fracture with a hammer and chisel. Some materials, like iron, are soft (relatively speaking) and can more easily deform, despite its denisty. If a bullet is fired at it, it can be dented, if it doesn't go all the way through, which would depend on the bullet and what it's fired from.

2) How one increases the body's elastic limit is through meditation by relaxing the body enough, so the body parts will start to soften (like the muscles and tendons), so they can be stretched more easily when doing stretching exercises because there is less tension. There are those people that do gymnastics that are Gumbi-like in what they can do with their bodies. What they're taught is to relax their minds and 'feel' the body parts opening up, like their back and the muscles on the inner sides and the back of their legs. Their continued practice gives them both the increased elasticity and strength, which couldn't be done, if they wouldn't let their minds relax in the first place.

In the instance of being put into a heavy bag and having that bag be kicked and punched or to take an elbow to the face, the best thing to do to passively survive it with the least amount of damage done to your body is to be pliable enough to let your body absorb the energy coming at you. To free up the areas where it is most stiff in the body, so that the elastic limit of the area struck is increased, allowing it to return to normal with or without bruising.

[golden arhat]

Thanks to Shaolin Wookie, there has been 2 entirely different definitions of a troll. If you post what your definition is, it'll be much easier to explain. At the moment, there is no frame of reference.

one that posts random cr@p designed to inflame arguments

but then u might just be an idiot

There has been a wide range of styles and methods for each subgroup. In the interest of brevity, I named it by region.

only the methods were important

it matters not weither they were any particular race

Was this supposed to get me rilled up? By calling me the name of a racist and an alcoholic? If that was your intention, you failed miserably at it. Because of your failure, I'd suggest a new tactic, which is to not use it. All it does is make you petty and small.

if you werent a ret@rd u would know i was making that reference because of mel gibson was in a host of action movie's

and u said u had been assaulted by
molotov ****tails
guns
knifes
etc

actually i'm beginning to think u spend all ur time playing grand theft auto

I am English. Part of my ancestry is an Irish/English mix. The only regional group I'm not is whatever region you want to call eskimos and Asian. It'd be best if you didn't

most north american's are english/irish/ decendant

so u have an english accent ?
well then dont use the word

u sound like an idiot

When one has already attained something, there is no need to post a video showing that they are trying to accomplish something. It's already happened.

oh so u cant do what you claim then ?
u could find a sparring partner make a video and youtube it in an instant if u actually had the stones to try any of the cr@p ur professing

Right, because you're the end all and be all of what is successful in the ring. To hell with what anyone else thinks. Sure, keep thinking that.

[Shaolinlueb]

SHAOLIN WOOKIE wrote
The reason the MMA fighter would dominate, is that he won't expect as much coming in, because he knows a punch can come in at every angle, and doesn't have to protect a centerline for the sake of the centerline. A kick can be used multitudes of ways, and doesn't always use the same striking surface. But as soon as you're engaged, he can generally predict your temper, striking method, and weakness, b/c he's exposed to so many stylisms, he has to be able to do this in order to keep up to tempo in his art.

i laughed at this. if your kung fu school doesnt train a punch to come in at different angles and kicks then you are missing out. its experience of the teacher too.

a good kung fu teacher should teach you about all aspects of fighting. you shouldn't have to be an mma mark. of course this means you have to find a teacher who has actually fought which 90% of them out there have not.

i see to many schools practicing things and are like, "if it comes in this way you do this" blah blah. that will teach you to get your ass kicked. you should be able to block and use any move instead of just 1 set of blocks and counter.

[Shaolinlueb]

as for multiple attackers you can thoerize on things all day. best thing to do from what i have encountered is to try to get them to come at you 1 on 1. don't let yourself get surrounded.

from there you can run, which i recommend. or you can take the guy out, beat one so bad you hope his friends learn their lesson.

[RonH]

one that posts random cr@p designed to inflame arguments

but then u might just be an idiot

Given that I haven't done that, I'm not a troll by your definition. My intention has never been to inflame arguments. Just because anyone gets all in a huff over something I said, that isn't on me. Take this thread. All of my posts have been in earnest. I have made no attempt at hiding my true feelings on this matter. While I have done that, there have been people that have mocked what I've said and me personally. It's not unexpected, since they consist mostly of the same people that have been doing it for some time.

The posts I made to them were also just as earnest as the ones I have made to you, Shaolin Wookie and everyone else in this thread. But...I'm not the one speaking to them. They continue to insist on speaking to me. Their words have no power over me, yet mine still have power over them, whatever the reason may be. It could even be said, from their perspective, that they want to eliminate as much crap from the martial arts community, as they can and that's why they keep posting what they write. Except, trying to lob verbal bombs and pictures my way do nothing. It doesn't even make me want to speak to them again, yet they keep at it. I've still got power over them. If I didn't, they wouldn't still be doing what they're doing.

And I'm supposedly the idiot?

only the methods were important

it matters not weither they were any particular race

There is more to fighting styles than 'stick and move' ideas. There's philosophy, culture. Each area of the planet, even with increasing globalization, still has characteristics that are distinct within themselves for all parts of that area. This includes fighting abilities.

But, as I said, I listed them the way I did for issues of brevity.

if you werent a ret@rd u would know i was making that reference because of mel gibson was in a host of action movie's

1) You waste your time by calling me a retard.
2) Given the types of vitriol you've be posting in response to what I've written, it shouldn't be surprising that your reference to Mel Gibson would be taken in that light.

and u said u had been assaulted by
molotov ****tails
guns
knifes
etc

actually i'm beginning to think u spend all ur time playing grand theft auto

I've never played that game or any of its variations. The only things in the last 10-15 years or so that are computer/video games that I've played are solitare and pinball on my laptop. But, that was when I got it last year.

most north american's are english/irish/ decendant

so u have an english accent ?

Yes.

well then dont use the word

No.

u sound like an idiot

I don't care what you think I sound like when I say it.

oh so u cant do what you claim then ?

No, I can't film an attempt at doing something because that implies I've never done it before.

u could find a sparring partner make a video and youtube it in an instant if u actually had the stones to try any of the cr@p ur professing

I'm quote myself from eariler: 'And at this point, I'm supposed to trust that if I did, I wouldn't be accused of not being the one in the video or accused of not using any internal principles, only the external ones? Uh huh.'

[golden arhat]

ur the idiot ?


well ....yes basically

u are the guy who recomends letting ur face go limp while u get elbowed

nuff said really

[RonH]

That's it? I do understand the appearance appeal of leaving your point 'short and sweet' like that and that is often a good thing when you've explained your stance well previously. Your problem is that you haven't explained your stance well, which is supposed to be the opposite of mine, which is what you keep saying. You don't say any evidence, taking your stance to be the de facto one. You even don't give any underlying principles for your stance. No one is above not giving underlying principles. Your continued insistance to mock is not a substitute for evidence or underlying principles.

And what about any of the other points I made? That there's more to a fighting style than stick and move, bob and weave. Anymore repartee about my accent? Are there any questions in the back of your mind about what else I feel is appropriate (as I have stated previously) when fighting multiple attackers, being able to take being in a heavy bag that's being kicked and punched or taking an elbow to the face with a minimum of damage? I know those questions are in you.

I've already given my position, as well as provided some (but not all) of my reasoning for that position, some of the underlying principles and how they can be achieved. I'm still wondering when you'll do the same as I.

[golden arhat]

look

its plain and simple really

going limp when u get hit is a sure way to be sent to accident and emergency

go and train mma and fight with one of those guys and try and use all your fancy cr@p there

i tried before
it simply doesnt work

i believe yielding with a blow has its use rediecting etc i do (well i did, before my injury) use these principles alot

moving out of the way pushing punches over and around etc
i quite like taiji and i think it has alot to offer

i think ur understanding of it is flawed

yielding doesnt mean letting your face go limp to absorb a blow it means pushing the punch out of the way
or stopping the elbow pushing it back and launching ur own attack

tho u may have attached yourself to this taoist well lets say it ...dogma
there is also alot to be said for the direct exernal and simple approach of blocking etc

both different sides of the same coin
just because u favor yielding doesnt mean u have to take it past the point of logic and let your body absorb elbows to the face

it doesnt work simple as

if u can get a video of u taking an elbow to the face going limp and coming off just fine then i'l glady watch it and believe u

again tho yielding has its purpose it wont stop u being run over and dying
come on be honest

if u are hit by a car and yield and relaxed u will still die or get seriously hurt
u know this to be true

[Knifefighter]

This message is hidden because RonH, with his completely clueless posts, is on your ignore list. You will never have to read his inane statements again.

Ah, I love the Ignore option.

[Pork Chop]

ahhh man....
no offense to myjhong people or the johnny lee org, but i believe the clip speaks for itself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrpACwkpQ44

i like kung fu.
i think there's good stuff there to take away and use.
sorry, i just can't drink the multiple attacker koolaid

i think situational awareness is a much better topic of study.
using a little can help you control just fighting one guy at a time, or keep you from getting into many-on-one situations in the first place.

[RonH]

Now, there you go! I knew you could do it, if I was patient with you. This is what I'm talking about. Not just posting 'it sucks because I say so' posts. And some were quick to put you on a pending list.

look

its plain and simple really

going limp when u get hit is a sure way to be sent to accident and emergency

go and train mma and fight with one of those guys and try and use all your fancy cr@p there

I have. One thing that you get from going limp with ground fighting, is that you conserve energy during the times when you need a very quick blast of it. Another (amongst other things) is that keeping the muscles and tendons in a particular part of your body loose and limp lets them bend further than you would normally expect. You can use this to free yourself from joint locks, like ones on shoulders. You can twist your shoulder around more and slip it out easier.

i tried before
it simply doesnt work

Can you give me an example? There might be something I've used myself that you might be able to use, too.

i believe yielding with a blow has its use rediecting etc i do (well i did, before my injury) use these principles alot

What kind of injury?

moving out of the way pushing punches over and around etc
i quite like taiji and i think it has alot to offer

i think ur understanding of it is flawed

Are you referring to my premise of increasing the elastic limit of the body, as well?

yielding doesnt mean letting your face go limp to absorb a blow it means pushing the punch out of the way
or stopping the elbow pushing it back and launching ur own attack

To use the word yeild, I'd define it as not putting up a resistence to an incoming force. In this instance, it would mean letting the body part struck move with the incoming force. Now, because of the connection the other parts of the body have with the body part struck, that would mean increasing the flexibility/elastic limit of not only the body part struck, but the nearby and connected tissue, as well.

This is what I meant earlier when I said letting the body flow around an incoming limb or weapon.

tho u may have attached yourself to this taoist well lets say it ...dogma
there is also alot to be said for the direct exernal and simple approach of blocking etc

True, that is, but given that it started with the idea of me being put into a heavy bag and closed up in it, while said bag was kicked and punched, I can't put a limb up because I can't see where the attack is coming. And listening for voids of sound, which is where blidnfighting could come in, would be defeated because there is an overall decrease in surrounding sound because I'm zipped up in the bag.

Now, that being said, there is the flip side of the methodology I would use. Letting the body go limp for passive work is coupled with the active work of remembering that I have the self-control to not let my elastic limit not reach its limit (causing me major damage) and that while I'm struck, I should do my best to continue to let my body move around and away from the incoming attack.

Let's look at a couple examples. Say I'm in the bag, my knees are about 6 inches from my chest and my shoulders are pushed a little forward because of the shape of the bag. Shaolin Wookie is outside the bag and he punches at my left shoulder and I feel the force move my shoulder to my right.

What would be required of me is that, just as when I get struck by a force when I'm outside the bag, I need to move my body with the force of the incoming punch. And, at the same time, move my shoulder away from the direction of the force of the incoming punch, out to the side of the force's path. I could end the shoulder move by making it follow a circular path, as I bring it back to the position it was in before it got hit. Now, that's gonna require that I move my upper body to my right, which might require some turning of my hips, depending on how much room I have to maneuver inside the bag. I might be able to use my toes to help push my hips up a little, as I press them against the side of the bag.

For another example, say Shaolin Wookie did a heel kick, which landed on my upper back. As soon as I felt pressure on my back, I need to make sure that it feels like the muscles of my back and shoulders relax and spread out and I push my shoulders back a little, around his foot, as I lean forward. I'd push the air out of my lungs as quickly, as possible, while pushing my diaphragm down.

It takes a little time, but you can get your body to reflexively 'flow' around an impact.

both different sides of the same coin
just because u favor yielding doesnt mean u have to take it past the point of logic and let your body absorb elbows to the face

If one is to take it to the face and have a minimum of damage afterwards, yeilding and staying limp and flexible, while you move away is the best way without trying to block it with a limb.

again tho yielding has its purpose it wont stop u being run over and dying
come on be honest
if u are hit by a car and yield and relaxed u will still die or get seriously hurt
u know this to be true

It is much larger than you, so you have to turn your body, so that you roll over it. You passively let it move under you, but you would need to be active in making sure that when upon the windshield, you don't just slam right into it. But, to do that, you'd need some trail runs first before the real thing.

[RonH]

i think situational awareness is a much better topic of study.
using a little can help you control just fighting one guy at a time, or keep you from getting into many-on-one situations in the first place.

Situational awareness is also important in defending against multiple attackers.

[Shaolin Wookie]

i laughed at this. if your kung fu school doesnt train a punch to come in at different angles and kicks then you are missing out. its experience of the teacher too.

a good kung fu teacher should teach you about all aspects of fighting. you shouldn't have to be an mma mark. of course this means you have to find a teacher who has actually fought which 90% of them out there have not.

i see to many schools practicing things and are like, "if it comes in this way you do this" blah blah. that will teach you to get your ass kicked. you should be able to block and use any move instead of just 1 set of blocks and counter.

Every teacher teaches defenses for attacks coming fromm all sorts of angles. Here's the problem. If he teaches you how poor a haymaker is in structure, and where it's weak, he never develops a haymaker. I've seen people with devastating haymakers. This NHB dude that was giving me tips had a wicked one. It was his KO, F you up, I'm not playing anymore-punch.

If you keep practicing defenses against a haymaker, and never throw one, you won't develop it. No wonder it will suck and have weaknesses.

You can't honestly sit there and tell me this isn't true about a lot of CMA.

[Shaolin Wookie]

And I'm supposedly the idiot?

We have to feed trolls, but of course trolls feed us a little. The only difference is, we take a polite break in the convo, excuse ourselves, and throw that nasty-tasting ordure up in the bathroom, wipe our mouths, and politely decline from eating it again.

As for the idiot part. I'm not saying you're an idiot. But I wouldn't say you're not an idiot.


Okay, okay, you're an idiot. Happy?

There is more to fighting styles than 'stick and move' ideas. There's philosophy, culture. Each area of the planet, even with increasing globalization, still has characteristics that are distinct within themselves for all parts of that area. This includes fighting abilities.

HAhahaha.........there's more to the art. Not to fighting. Fighitng is always visceral. The art isn't always so. Make that distincition, then come back and talk your jive.

1) You waste your time by calling me a retard.

You're assuming we wouldn't have spent that time calling someone else a retard.
You're here, blatantly retarded, and unaware. So we're calling you a retard to save time in searching for other retards. I believe we owe you some thanks. Thank you, for being a retard. It's appreciated.