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Thread: "Fighting"

  1. #16
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    I agree with EvolutionFist: you can not take Martial out of MartialArts. There are other ways of reaching enlightenment, if that's whay you're concerned with.

    "A powerful warlord was riding through a village. Many people got out of the way, lined the street and bowed their heads. One, a zen monk, did not bow. 'Don't you know who I am?! I could cut off your head and not even bat an eye!!!' 'Don't you know who I am?' replied the monk. 'I could let you cut off my head, and not even bat an eye.'

    Was this guy a martial artist? May be yes, may be not. Can you remain serene under a furious assault? Not me... But if I could, I'd be like that monk. And if I could also take it and then give it back, I'd be a martial artist.

    But this is a strange topic for the nei jia section... something I'd expect to see in the 'hard kf' threads. What you describe, EvolutionFist, does not sound very internal. Just because you mimic a move (or many moves) from an internal form, doesn't mean much. You have to DO them with the internal 'flavor'.

    How to fight with 'internal flavor'? Why don't taichi/shinyi/other guys spar in tournaments? (push hands isn't the same) Would they look like the 'regular kf guys' if they did?

  2. #17
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    By no means am I claiming to be "internal" -- not yet. I have something like 17 years of external background and have been doing E-chuan for 13 months.

    I would suggest however holding off judgement from an internet post alone. Have you seen my technique? Have you seen me fight? Of coarse I do not appose force with force, but look to gain position while absorbing, gain a pushing angle, ect. This is understood.

    But, at the same time, I am not "Relax, Relax, Relax" while doing pushing hands. I'm not tense, but at the same time, I do give some resistence, you can only come in so much. If you continue, I hold the position (shield) and move my body. I would say 85% of Taiji guys I see collapse themselves on the 1,2,3 pushhands start up. Look at the Taiji. There is a point where the two conflict. Yes, give, but not always. YIN and YANG.

    As for TaijiBob, it was agreat pleasure making your aquaintence here. I have no doubt that these internal arts work. Seeing my smaller, older (wiser) master in action, there is no doubt to that. Also, nothing soft about the way he beats my 27 year old body. I don't consider myself bad, but I feel terrible in his presence -- the level difference is rediculous.

    As for me, like I said, I know it works, I just need to make it work for me. Maybe I'm pig headed, but to me, that means going out time and time again, testing, refining, asking questions and then going and testing again.

    I hope I will be at that level one day. For now, I'm always open to cross hands (NY guys?). I don't mind taking the lumps from better guys in an effort to learn.

  3. #18
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    In taking on the taoist (t'ai chi) lifestyle, it would be wise to strive for a level of excellence in all of its aspects.

  4. #19
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    Smile TaiChiBob - Fighting

    After almost 30 years in hard-style karate/Tae Kwon Do and doing nothing but forms and fighting I felt I needed a change/maybe a higher level. The change was Chen Tai Chi and looking into the internal aspects of the art. I feel I am on the right path. Practicing Lao Jia and Pao Choi with intent is all I require. With Qigong practice, I have come a long way. At 55, if attacked, I am either going to be victor/all over the street. No time to think just act. Thanks for the good question TaiChiBob. Train well.

    Damian

  5. #20
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    Some very good points overall going on here, but there's a pattern emerging which has only served to add to the confusion so far. It should be a) learned for the first time, or b) kept in mind (whichever applies) that Taiji and Taijiquan are not the same thing. I think mistaking these two for each other is at the root of some of the apparent disagreement between certain posts. They are not identical...by definition, one is a subset of the other.

    Taiji is a Taoist concept which can adopted/acknowledged/applied to any area of one's life entirely regardless of whether one practices Taijiquan or ANY internal art, or any martial art at all, for that matter. Likewise, it is possible, especially at introductory levels, for one to practice and even excel at Taijiquan without practicing the Taoist concept of Taiji in any other area of one's life.

    Taijiquan is a fighting art, first and foremost. Those who don't understand this most commonly simply do not understand the basic difference between Taiji and Taijiquan. The simplest clues are provided in the nomenclature. "Taiji Quan" refers contextually to a style of fighting based on or named after "Taiji". Had it been constructed from its origin entirely of physical motions which reflect the Taoist concept of Taiji (which it wasn't), it STILL would not BE Taiji. It would remain a fighting style based on the concept of the Taiji. In actuality, Taijiquan doesn't even enjoy THAT level of Taoist purity. It existed as Chen Gar for many many years before Taoist concepts were infused into it. Heck, the Chens themselves didn't even give in and regularly refer to their art as Taijiquan until the 1960's. Chen family style came from Buddhist roots, not Taoist, and the system was purely and simply a fighting art for the protection of the members of the Chen village.

    Modern American pseudo-Taoist language regarding "being in balance with everything" and "fighting without fighting" includes an implied connotation of non-violence which did not exist in the art of Taijiquan up to and including most of the 20th century. In fact, this philosophical difference between the teachings and admonitions of Taoist philosophers and the family of Yang Lu-chan may have been one of the factors in Yang's reluctance to accept the term "Taiji Quan" as a name for his art. Yang's wu de is the stuff of legend and his mercy in combat is an inspiring tale. Yet Yang himself was unapologetically a fighter. Perhaps not with the same cultural connotations of immaturity, insecurity and basic thuggery that that term includes for modern Americans, but a fighter nonetheless.

    If a modern practitioner wishes to practice the concept of Taiji or any other Taoist concept in his/her life in any or all contexts, that is up to the individual. However, such a person should not confuse the practice of Taiji, in whatever context, with the practice of the martial art of Taijiquan IN THAT one is still a subset of the other. If one is uncomfortable with the terrible violence contained in the martial art of Taijiquan and finds it incongruent with one's practice of Taiji as a whole, perhaps avoiding the art may be appropriate. Attempting to resolve that perceived incongruence by pretending that the martial art of Taijiquan DOESN'T include that extreme violence is merely self-deceiving and accomplishes nothing.
    Last edited by Chris McKinley; 03-13-2002 at 04:47 PM.

  6. #21

    Wink

    Just rereading the thread, still interesting views. One thing I noticed that was not mentioned was age and length of time practicing.

    If you view it as a life process as some have stated or as way to reach a certain goal or combative usage as others have suggested your out look will be very different.

    I think this really depends on where are in life and what exactly dose getting it mean to you.

    I think, I know, my own views/ ideas of practice have really changed with the passage of time. I see many of my early views and practices in many who post here, as I’m sure that some older or more practiced people can empathize with mine.

    Correct practice! Very hard to really say I would think until you have some sense of it, then your practice really begins.

    How long it takes to develop this sense from my experience depends on the skill and ability of the teacher, the openness and understanding of the student. Some like me had/have a hard head and maybe a little slow so it may taken a little longer to develop this sense.

    At this stage you may know it and feel it in others but may not be able to express it well within your self. I think TC unlike many other arts requires a kind of faith that the practice is correct.

    kind of hard to do if your mind is filled with fear and ego.

    We all have them to a greater or lesser degree, TC a good way to really work em out.
    enjoy life

  7. #22
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    Chris McKinley,

    Greetings, Chris..

    Excellent and on point.. indeed Tai Chi Chuan is a set of movements with Martial intent.. "Chuan" meaning form or set of movements.. and, as you pointed out, a sub-set of Tai Chi, a way of "living" that includes protecting self and others..

    I, personally, arrived at this Art in the late '80s after a 20 year jaunt (off and on depending on too many factors to list here) in the standard hard styles.. originally, i started Tai Chi Chuan to help with a back injury that made my normal practice unbearable.. but, it was like a homecoming, i had arrived where i had always needed to be.. a place that offered the full range of responses to any conflict, from the compassionate control of an out of control friend, to the savage and brutal handling of one or more attackers with no mercy in their "intent".. That, to me, is the wisdom of Tai Chi Chuan.. more options, more opportunities..

    On the other hand, Tai Chi, as a way of living is equally appealing.. it sets the environment where my Tai Chi Chuan is most effective, the environment of embracing one's true nature.. recognizing that we ARE both yin and yang.. light AND dark.. Tai Chi is nonjudgmental, it asserts that nature happens.. and, we will struggle against it or flow with it.. key concepts, struggle/flow.. we can focus on the Martial (Tai Chi Chuan) aspect of Tai Chi, but that seems unbalanced in light of the available wisdom inherent to the Philosophy as a whole.. or, as i have chosen, i allow my Tai Chi Chuan to be an expression of my Tai Chi.. it allows me the knowledge and skill to exist beyond fear, the wisdom (i hope) to see life worth living with unconditional sincerity, deliberately, and compassionately.. (and a whole heap o' gusto)

    Be well, be kind to yourselves.. (training hard is also being kind to yourself..)
    TaiChiBob.. "the teacher that is not also a student is neither"

  8. #23
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    There's no getting around the fact that taijiquan is a highly efficient and effective martial art. It's in the history, in the personalities in that history, and all in the forms and practice. The Yangs taught the militia, Lu Chan's nickname was Yang Wu Di--"Yang No Rivals", the stories of Ban-hou's and Shao-hou's gongfu being like a bullet, etc, etc, etc.. However:

    I have been noticing something interesting lately (I'm sure it's been around a while, it's just I'm pretty much a beginner so I haven't been around long). Pretty much no one in the general public knows taiji is a martial art. They say "Oh, tai chi is a martial art? Interesting.", or instantly they picture 80 year-old chinese women in the parks of Beijing practicing the form early in the morning. This is a misconception. However, I have been noticing the opposite lately, and I think it is in reaction to this.

    Some, of course rightly so, want to get away from that silly stereotype about taijiquan, but in doing so go to the other extreme. Now, instead of taiji been a useless, new-age dance, we have the amazingly brutal art of taijiquan where if you're not killing with your elbows and deadly throat strikes, you're not doing the "real deal". Many people are so quick to dismiss the new-age stereotype, that taiji starts sounding more like a hard-style in attitude. KILL, KILL, KILL, nothing but killing strikes. Of couse there are many killing strikes in taiji, no doubt about it, but one of the great things about taiji, I find, is that there is such a wide range of uses and options. Sure, you can kill, but you can push, pull, push with long or short energy--you have a huge array of things to choose from each with varying degrees of severity. But I hear many people completely dismiss everything but the brutal killing shots, I think beacuse they don't want to be mistaken for the new-age stuff--'taijiquan is only for killing and seriously maiming an attacker. that's the only thing worth practicing.'--that sort of thing.

    I applaud those who try to get away from the new-age hippy stereotype that has so debased and watered down our art, but I feel that we can become too carried away. Not to sound like one of them hippies , but one extreme is just as bad as the other. We have to seek the right balance, and I feel that taiji has that balance; we just have to be careful not to go to the other extreme while getting away from the other.

    (((That's my rant for now. This was all general, and was not aimed at any particular person, or anything like that. It was directed towards a concept and attitude I have been observing in the taiji world today.)))
    "Duifang jing zhi meng ji, wo fang tui zhi ce fang xi zhi."

  9. #24
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    TaiChiBob,

    I think you have very succinctly described not only proper understanding of the two concepts, but correct prioritization of them as well. I say that with definite bias, given that my views seem nearly to mirror those you've just expressed.

    taijiquan_student,

    Your post was rather thought provoking. Though you were clear regarding the intended audience of your post, I'm going to own up to being one of the strongest voices for the combat viability of Taijiquan, and so accordingly, respond to the points addressed in your post.

    RE: "Now, instead of taiji been a useless, new-age dance, we have the amazingly brutal art of taijiquan where if you're not killing with your elbows and deadly throat strikes, you're not doing the "real deal".". I cannot argue with what you claim to have heard, but speaking for myself, I've heard no one at all make such a statement. Granted, applications such as you describe ARE found in Taijiquan, but are certainly not the ONLY level of response available.

    RE: "Many people are so quick to dismiss the new-age stereotype, that taiji starts sounding more like a hard-style in attitude. KILL, KILL, KILL, nothing but killing strikes.". This statement reflects an error in assumption. Namely, that killing strikes or even the intent to kill is the exclusive or even dominant domain of "hard" styles (another misnomer) and not of the internal arts just as equally. Perhaps also it under-recognizes the less-than-lethal aspects of those same "hard" styles, as I'm sure many waijia practitioners might point out.

    RE: "Of couse there are many killing strikes in taiji, no doubt about it, but one of the great things about taiji, I find, is that there is such a wide range of uses and options.". Thank you for this qualification/clarification of your previous statement. I am in total agreement here.

    RE: "But I hear many people completely dismiss everything but the brutal killing shots, I think beacuse they don't want to be mistaken for the new-age stuff--'taijiquan is only for killing and seriously maiming an attacker.". Again, I cannot argue with what you claim to have heard or not heard, but merely point out that I have yet to see such a position stated by anyone on this forum in any thread in 2 years. Dismissing all but the most lethal applications of any art is better left for armchair video game warriors new to their emerging adolescence. No one who has seen real violence and remains well-adjusted would categorically dismiss the notion of skills for handling a situation without loss of life.

    RE: "We have to seek the right balance, and I feel that taiji has that balance; we just have to be careful not to go to the other extreme while getting away from the other.". I agree that Taijiquan has that balance, and to an exquisite depth not found in most other arts. However, the very concept of the Taiji itself denotes not static but dynamic balance. That is, there will be times when a predominance, even an extreme, of one aspect will be present. The balance of Taiji isn't necessarily found in any particular static moment, but rather as an average over time.

    If one wishes to practice Taiji in one's Taijiquan, there will be times when the extreme Yin of healing is the most appropriate response as opposed to the extreme Yang of lethality. There will also be other times when both will be present in various ratios depending on the context.

    If I may for a moment be so bold as to speak for more than myself on this point, I would suggest that the reason that the "combat aware" crowd (of which I am at least a member) do not typically mention the softer or more Yin aspects of Taijiquan practice is that those aspects are already far more than fairly represented, especially in the context of this forum, but also in the internal arts community at large. We need not merely echo the voices of those advocating the Yin nature of the art. Indeed, the cacophony of those collective voices are the source of the current stereotype problem to begin with. That is, too much focus on the Yin, to the detriment and unbalance of the Yang. "Exhibit A", so to speak, would be the sadly too numerous examples of so-called Taijiquan instructors who don't even know that it ever WAS a martial art.

    Therefore, what is seen is a local and hopefully temporary imbalance toward the Yang in the tone of some of our posts, my own certainly included. Taken out of context, these posts might seem to reflect a rather two-dimensional "kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out" type of mentality which would be at least as big a travesty as the New Age hippified Taiji problem is (at least the hippie stereotypes aren't a danger to anyone). However, if put back into the proper context of the larger scope of the practice of Taijiquan in modern America, these posts, Yang-heavy as they may seem, help serve to mitigate the extreme imbalance toward the Yin which exists in the art as a whole in this country.

    To use a rather chessy chemistry analogy, if you've got too much of a strong base in your solution and you wish to have a neutral pH level, you do not add a weak acid to the mix. It wouldn't affect the reading very much and would take forever to ultimately add enough volume to correct the balance. Instead, you would add a correspondingly strong acid to the solution. In doing so, you would more quickly correct the imbalance and you would need to add comparatively much less volume to the total solution.

    In closing, I would ask that you please not think that those of us who unapologetically acknowledge the combat viability of Taijiquan, even including its lethal components, hang out at the Yang end of the spectrum all the time. Myself as an example, I spend FAR more time as a healer than as a fighter. My bookshelves are at least as full of life-affirming, positive, healing, generative material as they are of the latest garrotting techniques. There are a few who know me in person from these forums. I daresay all of them would attest to the more Clark Kent-ish persona I use in my daily life. And yet I am one of the relatively few people on these forums who has experienced and survived real life-or-death combat on more than one occasion. To paraphrase, those who have seen the horror of real fighting work the hardest to avoid it.

  10. #25

    Wink

    “Taijiquan doesn't even enjoy THAT level of Taoist purity”

    I find this an interesting statement can you explain a little more?


    “I applaud those who try to get away from the new-age hippy stereotype that has so debased and watered down our art, but I feel that we can become too carried away. Not to sound like one of them hippies”

    has anyone met one the hippies that they talk about. I grew up in SF, used to go to GG park in the 70s for the free concerts. So has anyone here besides me seen or have been a hippie.

    Debased? Watered down? Mmm what dose this mean? No one has watered down my art nor debased it. I don’t care much for what they do with their art I suppose it’s up to them, if people follow them then that’s probably what they expect and are looking for. Is there a problem with that?

    The tij-world what is the tij world ? where ever it is i hope it has nice beaches, a cool ocean breez and good waves.
    enjoy life

  11. #26
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    Hey, man, you're not Clark Kent. Clark Kent wears glasses!

    Seriously, I agree with what Chris said wholeheartedly. Except I don't see the extreme attitudes as some sort of "imbalance." Socially, things swing from extreme to the other like a pendulum. Attitudes will change over a period of several years, from the yin aspect to the yang aspect, and then will begin changing back the other way. Soon enough, attitudes will begin changing back to a more balanced position. Of course, a few years after that, they will reach the other extreme, and people will be clamoring for people to listen that Taiji can actually heal you!

    Most people who express interest in learning Taiji from me want to learn the fighting part. But believe it or not, I would rather they come to me to learn the healing part. I find that people are more willing to learn when they are trying to learn to better themselves than when they are trying to learn to hurt others. In the process of learning to heal, they will learn to harm, because that's just the way it goes. But those who want to learn to harm give up long before the real work, that of learning to heal, starts. They learn the easy stuff and never progress to the meaningful stuff.

  12. #27
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    Greetings..

    Thanks everyone.. this is a really good range of responses, it demonstrates the variety of perceptions of Tai Chi, the interesting personalities involved, and.. most importantly, the ability to express differing views without challenges and negative criticism.. i think this is evidence of Tai Chi's potential, where in some threads the challenge would have been served..or, the post belittled (along with its author).. as Tai Chi enthusiasts we see the value in deflecting and absorbing, saving the strikes for only the most necessary or opportune situations..

    Bamboo Leaf: 'Pleased to meet you, hope you guessed my name".. Old Hippie, here.. those were the best years and i carry the memories fondly.. Summer of '67, Berkley, 17 year old Bob and his surfing buddies traveled to SF.. enlightenment was at every street corner .. 35 years later, enlightenment still eludes me but the path to get there is somewhat more certain.. (i may have been enlightened several times during the '60s but i can't seem to remember).. Tai Chi, with its inherent Tai Chi Chuan and the Taoist philosophy that surrounds it seems the most sound path i have experienced.. the yin/yang experiences are vibrant and expansive, the personalities are notable, worthy of closer inspection.. Still surfing, i find a very distinct relationship between Tai Chi and surfing, all the elements are present in both..

    again, Thanks.. this thread affirms my choices, my Tai Chi's validity..
    TaiChiBob.. "the teacher that is not also a student is neither"

  13. #28

    Talking Fighting

    Wow, alot of good info being exchanged here and no flaming, COOL.


    Ye Gor stated;
    "How to fight with 'internal flavor'? Why don't taichi/shinyi/other guys spar in tournaments? (push hands isn't the same) Would they look like the 'regular kf guys' if they did?"

    My responce as a Tai Ji and Hsing-I "guy" sparring in tournements
    using the full range of techniques could and will hurt, maim, or kill an opponent or yourself, at least the way I train, it is not for tournements but for real. A KF fighter fighting in a KF tournement still has limitations on the techniques that they can use on an opponent, of course they train for tourney fighting. You are correct about Push Hands, it is not sparring, at least not in the sense that most people think, rather it is a test of skills learned during ones Internal MA training.
    Good insight to have asked that question though. I have been asked that myself before and the explanation escapes most people.

    B_L, I wasn't a Hippie, but living in So. Cal. (1967-70) I sure saw and ran into a few. Actually pretty cool people sometimes. There wan't that much TC in So. Cal. at that time and TC back then hadn't had the "New Agers" to get ahold of it yet.
    After learning TC from you and continuing with Michael after you moved has kept me from falling into the "Cloud Dancers" claws. Sure TC has been watered down and bebased by some, but they are few in number compared to those who have hooked up with a good teacher who actually understands what the essense of Tai Chi is.

    All in all fella's TC has a good future as well as does the CMA in general, if those of us who are really conciencitious(sp?)about our TC and CMA's then we are obligated to learn and practice and teach to others the real and complete art at least as one understands it and then guide the students to someone else that
    can take them further.


    As B_L said

    "The tij-world what is the tij world ? where ever it is i hope it has nice beaches, a cool ocean breez and good waves. "
    (Although I might add some hot little Wahinis(sp?) would sure help out too. )

    I wholeheartedly agree and I hope it's big enough for all the TC players here.
    Last edited by Metal Fist; 03-14-2002 at 07:26 AM.
    Threats are the last refuge of the weak, but the true Warrior has no need of threats. He acts appropriately at all times and in all circumstances."

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