Muay Thai kicks

[churn-ging]

I just had a sparring session with a friend yesterday who did muay thai for three years and I was having a hell of a time trying to defend myself against his roundhouse kick.

Here's what I tried against it. At first, I tried a gang sao against it but found that it was killer on my arms and that whenever he kicked full force, my structure would collapse. Then I tried going in to kick his body while he was throwing his kick. It would work sometimes, but whenever I was a little to slow with my kick, I would usually catch his kick on my shin, which hurts like hell. After that, I just tried backing out and waiting for the kick to go past first. Then I would just go in and attack when his back was turned. This seemed to be the safiest thing to do.

My question to all of you is, how do you guys handle these muay thai kicks? What do you find works really well where you don't have to take any of the force of the attack on any part of your body?

[Roy D. Anthony]

Side stepping the force, and remembering that Reality sucks. LOL

[Merryprankster]

I'm not wing chun, BUT, I tend to box against thai boxers because i want the clinch...

Step in when you see the weight go to the back leg--even if they don't kick, the weight is on the back leg, rooting it to the ground. If they do throw, you've taken the power out of it by being close.

Shin check and step in (ow, unless you have conditioned shins)

One thing that has worked for me, is to teep (push kick) their hip/thigh as I see the weight shift, with my lead leg, and use that to disrupt the kick. I put my kick down and use that as my step in. I believe I have seen a WC stop kick of some sort. Might that serve the same purpose, in a similar way?

[old jong]

You can stomp kick it, You can step in and kick his other leg, You can move back at an angle and attack when he is turned from his momentum but, something is sure:You have to expect some pain!...And attack like a Wing Chun'er the instant you can! Roy is right in saying "Reality sucks"
...Just don't try to block that with your arm!!!!!

[Matrix]

Trying to block the full impact of a hard roundhouse with your gan sao will not work, but I guess you already know that now.
Never meet force with force.

Remember that most of the power of this kick is at the end of the leg, so depending on how the kick is delivered the point of contact is meant to be the foot (karate and some TKD so this) or shin of the attacking leg. You can get inside that power zone, by stepping inside and from there striking, either with a kick to the post leg or hitting the upper body to rock their balance and disrupt the kick. This of course takes speed and timing, but if you were looking for an easy solution, think again. You need to strike while they are standing on one leg and/or before they can reset their stance to deliver any type of combination.

By the way, you can step in at an angle, as opposed to straight in. I believe that Muay Thai fighters also like to use their elbows on the inside for close range fighting, so be aware of that as well.

Alternatively, you can move to the outside, going around and allowing the kicking leg to pass, and attack the post leg or upper body from the outdoor postion. You still need speed and skill here too, but you have more room to maneouvre out there.

And yes, reality sucks. But better to find it out now than having to deal with the consequences in the street. If you think that you can fight a skilled opponent without ever getting hit, you are mistaken.


Matrix

[Little Buddha]

Just a question.. How do the Thai boxer's defend against that kind of kick?

[reneritchie]

The Gaun Sao against the Thai kick pretty much got ruled out when Yip Man's team went to fight against a Thai team and the kicks darn near broke their Gaun arms (might even have broken a couple).

In general, defending long range kicks can be looked at similar to WCK knife vs. pole. (though it will vary slightly if we're talking Thai kick to upper torso vs. Thai kick to legs).

If you have the footwork and timing (and don't get caught by surprise), cut the kick's circle. Close in quickly and attack in a way that destroy's their balance (you can kick the supporting leg, groin, punch the throat/face, sweep, throw, etc.). Staight steps are quicker, angled steps safer. This takes practice, practice, practice...

If you don't have the footwork and timing yet (need more practice), you may have to shield first then move in. Poon Tan Bong (Half Tan Bong, what some call Kwan Sao) is safer on your arms than Gaun Sao, but still takes footwork to set up properly. You can also attack the kick, punching just above the knee-cap, kicking the leg (try to avoid shin-on-shin as Thai boxers often have well conditioned shins), etc.

My classmates wrote an article on kicking in general: http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/...01_kicks.shtml

Rgds,

RR

[Matrix]

Thai boxers are very heavily conditioned fighters. They will practice kicking hard objects to condition to their shins to both accept impact and to deliver it. They meet force with force, and are quite formidable fighters. Depending on where they are relative to the range of their opponent, they may step back to have the opponent miss, or step in and take the hit inside the power zone of the roundhouse where it is less powerful, while delivering a strike or combination of their own. They can also just raise their lead knee up to stop block the kick before it reaches full strength. Think of the roundhouse much like a whip. If you can stop the forward progress of the whip before it reaches its peak, you can nullify its sting to a large degree. Once again timing is critical.

It's a tough game that they play.

Matrix

[Merryprankster]

Thai boxers shin check the incoming kick, plant and return fire or step in.

The thai roundkick is a particularly strong kick--it is unchambered. You pretty much lean back, bring it off the ground and whack it at your opponent by turning your hips over as you would swing a baseball bat. Trust me when I tell you that it hurts about as much. Kicks to the leg with this style are not to be underestimated for the damage they will cause you.

They don't actually just "raise the knee." They raise it and lean back while thrusting their hips forward. Ideally, the incoming kick is caught on the shin just under the knee. This is the thickest part of the shin and it hurts the least to get kicked there, when shin checking. It also hurts the other guy more.

Leaning back and thrusting your hips forward creates a structure in which the force is transmitted through the back leg to the ground. Just raising the knee creates a weak structure with the hinge at the knee. This tends to make the block wobbly and unstable.

There are three ways to block the incoming kick that I can think of, and there are probably more, given my relative inexperience, but the shin check is probably the most common.

[Matrix]

Great article.

I really believe that footwork and timing are essential. If you don't have footwork you will just find yourself in a postion where you are attempting to deflect your opponents attacks just at the point where they are most powerful. By moving correctly, you both lessen the effectiveness of the attack, and place yourself in a more favorable position for a strike of you own.

Timing of course is vital since even the most perfectly executed techniques are useless the timing is off. If you're too late, you've probably already taken a hit. If too early, your opponent will see what you are doing and can make adjustments of his own.

Matrix

[dezhen2001]

when i used to train with my mate who does muay thai, i developed my own way of dealing with it (before i did WC). I used to just blast straight in and shoulder barge him using both my arms to protect me from/control his thigh...

didn't work all the time, but when the timing was just right it was a peach

david

[Matrix]

Good point about the unchambered kick. That's a very important detail. And yes, never underestimate the power behind the kicks. It would be a serious mistake in judgement to do so.

Regards,
Matrix

[Merryprankster]

I agree matrix.

My personally prefered tactic is to step in and counter with a right cross, followed up by clinching. I wrestled, so I like to be there.

[burnsypoo]

Matrix, do you have any firsthand experience with a muay thai fighter? or maybe any sanshou? How were their legs/kicks/methods different from the tae kwon do you experienced in your youth?

-BP-

[Merryprankster]

I'll bite.

I don't have TKD experience, but my lil' bro does and I used to watch him and we used to mess around. I also have sparred kick boxers with a TKD background.

The first and most obvious difference is that the thai roundhouse is an unchambered kick. It swings directly up from the ground as though it were a "deadleg." The power is generated by hip torque, not a snapping motion. The leg is very relaxed on impact. You are trying to bury your shin in and through your opponent. The extreme amount of power generated by kicking this way precludes striking surfaces other than the shin. Attempting to use the foot or the ball of the foot, would probably break something.

A TKD'er tends to chamber their kicks. They raise the leg up first, and then snap the kick out there. IME, this does not create as much power as the thai kick. That doesn't mean it won't work, and the philosophy is different as well...

Now, while all kicks are legal in thaiboxing, the push kick and the roundkick are the two most common. The push kick is a chambered kick, and while it is thrown quickly, the purpose is to maintain distance/set your opponent up. It's not usually thrown as a "damage" weapon. Think of it as a boxer's jab. Used for distance, probing, and set-ups.

A TKD'ers chambered kick has an advantage over the thai roundkick in that chambering the kick disguises the kick you're going to do--a sidekick, a front snap kick, and a round kick are all initiated the same way from the outsiders point of view, and you can adjust what kick you are going to do fairly quickly if need be.
Multiple kicks can be thrown in much less time.

As bad as Thai Boxers hands tend to be, they have been better than the TKD'ers that I've met and played with. Thai boxers are intimately familiar with the clinch and fire knees and elbows in it. They also have an arsenal off off balancing "takedowns." Not really throws, not really kicks, sort of a footsweep thing.

Thaiboxers are usually more experienced giving and receiving leg shots. They also usually have more conditioned legs that can take the heavy beating of throwing and blocking kicks.