Burnsy,
He's doing well.
Matrix
That was Zen, this is Tao
Burnsy,
He's doing well.
Matrix
Registered User
you guys are so caught up in Techniques vs Techniques that you lose seight of what is really important. Moi tai kicks can happen within 1/4 of a second and the fighter have three weapons to work with to confuse you. you are not going to know when and how he will kick.
some times you just have to suck in the pain and hurt him 5 times as he hurt you.
Junior Member
OK OK perhaps I wasn't very clear.
Firstly I have trained with people experienced in MT. They are not champs but serious practioners.
I'm just trying to say that sometimes the attack is not the problem - just your approach to dealing with it.
It is good to experiment and experience different attacks and analyse outcomes.
Shin on shin is not an option for me so i have found other ways. I can't condition myself for four years and hope that somebody fights me after then!
The gentler way is to avoid a kick or smother/jam it. A compromise is to move off range. That can be closer or further back. There are other weapons that could come into play elbows and knees.
I am also trying to make you understand that whilst a kick is strong so is your kick/punch. Defense by offense.
You will rarely see the attack which hits you - people can hit and kick so fast now - unless you are squared off in a match or in a movie. Its a mess of limbs and bodies. Our CONCEPTS should be utilised and TRAINED.
Perhaps the original question was about a specific technique and I have waffled a bit - sorry i just had something to say. I just wish people would be more positive about wc and understand what a weapon they also have.
Finally just because I change my mini for MT shorts does not make me experienced in MT - you'll never know.
GP
Junior Member
lotus kick has the idea
GP
Homicidal puppet
I think the first five or six posts basically covered this but...
MP, the 'stop kick' you mentioned needs a sidestep, and I think is too slow. If you mess up the timing you really lose your balance and are open to a nailing.
(Can't remember who - sorry, bit of a hurry...) the gaun to the nerve bundle is nice if you step in past the shin contact range and really screw your pivot into the ground. I've seen this done by a very experienced, conditioned and fast practitioner who supplemented it with a simultaneous strike to the same area (kind of a gaun da I suppose), which caused the Thai guy's leg to buckle completely when he put it down. That wc guy was fast enough to bounce that strike into a series to the Thai guy's head and upper body. I'm not and I doubt that many people are without taking some damage!
The only one I've used regularly without too much of a beating is to step in quickly past the shin, raising the left leg (assuming right kick coming in). This can be turned into a rising/falling knee to the nuts/bladder, with excellent stabilising qualities when you contact. Or, depending on the range and timing (if you are too slow/far away) you can turn it into the (MP's) left knee/left arm block position. It can even be turned into a body slam (as Dez ?) mentioned though how you're getting this with your shoulder I don't know!?
Just a couple more ideas...
its safe to say that I train some martial arts. Im not that good really, but most people really suck, so I feel ok about that - Sunfist
Sometime blog on training esp in Japan
Furthr
But matrix's point is spot-on... you are suggesting "techniques" to deal with the kick, just the way we were. It's no different. Read our posts again. We recommend a fight strategy (ie, close the gap) along with the technique (block, move in, move out). Read the posts again.
I use the MT push kick as a stop kick, so it's not that slow. As soon as you see the weight back and the hip start to turn, you throw the push kick, step DOWN at the end of it, which puts you inside, and throw leather. If he was trying to fake a kick, so what? You've STILL thrown a push/stop kick that landed. The trick is to throw at the hip or center, not the thigh.
Now, if you are referring to the rather detailed explanation of the MT kick vice TKD, and shin conditioning, those were responses to specific questions, and have pretty much nothing to do with fight strategy--or even the original question.
GP- I have unconditioned shins as well, so I prefer to close the distance, as I mentioned in my posts. My "technique" for doing so is just different than yours... the same fight strategy though.
Too funky for myself
lotus kick,
technique versus technique seems like a legitimate way to address the question. while it will never be as simple as "if he does A, i'll do B", that's still a very valid starting point. moreso, i believe, than saying "absorb the pain and hurt him 5 times as much." how do you propose to do that? he's not going to stop after he scores a good kick on you. he's going to continue. just as you are. that just doesn't sound like a workable plan. a workable plan begins with a technical addressing of the problem. either a technique or a concept that can be physically embodied and experimented with to creat a workable solution. absorbing the pain and then hurting him worse sounds ideal, but it's not a workable solution.
besides, with experience, you'll see the predictors for that kick. it doesn't come from nowhere. there are hints. there are leads. and when you become familiar enough with them, you can take advantage of them, as it is with ANY OTHER TECHNIQUE OR CONCEPT. it's a question of addressing the situation with the right information and the right training method.
girl power,
your ideas sound perfectly valid to me. they're not a shoe in though. bear in mind that for many muay thai fighters, inside is actually where they want you too. so while an overwhelming offense is a good idea, it's not a guarantee. it may get you clinched and elbowed/kneed. that's not to say don't do it. it's just a question of investigating the possibilities and working out some strategies to address them.
as a sidenote, my teacher advised that IF YOU HAVEN'T CONDITIONED YOUR SHINS, you can perform the leg block a little differently and have it serve much of the same purpose. turn your toes inward so that your calf is turned outward. that way, you absorb the kick on the calf and thigh rather than on the bone. it absorbs the kick without quite as much duress to you. granted, it won't hurt the kicker. but it won't hurt you either.
moving in on an angle, to either snuff the kick or fade away from it's maximal power, sounds good to me. does wing chun train that sort of footwork? (earnest question)
quick note on the contrast between muay thai and taekwondo kicks: taekwondo kicks aren't quite as powerful in my experience, but because they're chambered, they're more difficult to step into and snuff. the kick goes where the knee is pointed. so if the kick is directed at you, the knee is pointing toward you first, placing it between you and the opponent's body. you can still snuff the kick if you're quick. but the mechanic for doing so is a little different from that in muay thai, in my opinion.
stuart b.
That was Zen, this is Tao
Yes, I understand that we are talking technique vs technique. We are just discussing options here. Now the original poster is not a WC person, and they've been getting the usual "well it depends" type answers. So we're just throwing out some options. It's just a point of discussion.
Ultimately there are techniques that will be used, and every situation is different and we can "what if" our selves into a corner, but in the end some techniques are more effective. Yes, we all understand that there is a system, and not just a bunch of techniques put together in a package.
At one point I was thinking of posting a disclaimer. So here it is ....
"This is not a pure Wing Chun discussion. Please do not take offence. The participants are just throwing some abstract thoughts around here. I apologize to anyone whose sensitives have been offended."
Regards,
Matrix
Member
Hi everyone.
I really like all the ideas that you have given. It's just to bad that I won't be able to try them out on him until Friday.
But I have been working on my footwork, trying to close the gap and come right in and all that. When you guys do that, do any of you lift your leg up to some how cover the line of the kick? Or if the kick is towards the body, bring your hands up to cover the body?
Right now I'm trying to get the reaction down so that I can just come right in at the first sign of the kick.
Registered User
Apoweyn - you know that i'm right and you even expanded on my comments to prove that i'm right. but you also make it sound like i was worng.
As for Merryprankster and Matrix - you two just don't get it.
When fighting a Moi tai guy, his kicks are so fast, thet you might not able to respond with the correct movement. espically when you have not conditioned you reactions. One and only thing to keep in mind that when he kicks, he is presenting a opening. as a wing chun fighter, your job is to take advantage of that opening to take contol of his body so he can't react back.
angry young gigolo
"as a wing chun fighter, your job is to take advantage of that opening to take contol of his body so he can't react back. "
Golly, thanks, that was enlightening. And I didn't feel overloaded with useless information.
Stupidity - the number one sexually transmitted disease.
Furthr
Lotus--it's unrealistic to tell somebody to do something and not show/explain to them how to do it.
You say--oh, you have to take a hit and then follow up. Well, great. But HOW do you follow up? And both Matrix and I responded that one option, at least, is to move in and throw before balance is recovered. There are some others that we offered.
And Muay Thai guys being too fast to block, stop, move in on, etc? That's actually, and I rarely ever use this word, stupid. It's like saying that Wing Chun hands are so fast there's nothing you can do about it. I move in all the time. I regularly move in to take power out of the kick and throw leather to start backing the guy up and stay inside their kick range, or clinch so I can fire some knees and elbows.
churn-ging--e-mail me at merryprankster@msn.com I'm a non WC guy, but because I am NOT an MT fighter per se, who has sparred with MT fighters, I might have some insight in how to deal with them. I use a similar forward pressure strategy to how WC might approach this.
Last edited by Merryprankster; 03-12-2002 at 01:53 PM.
Too funky for myself
lotus kick,
no i don't know you are right, because you didn't really say much. hence the need to expand on it.
okay, let's do this. tell me, without discussing technique (which was your earlier objection, yes?) precisely HOW you would close distance and control the kicker, GIVEN your earlier assertion that the kicks are very fast and very difficult to predict.
i believe there are ways to do just that. but if you're insisting that i'm overlooking specifically what you said, then i apologize. and i'd like to hear it again.
what i saw was a suggestion that you dish out 5 times what you take. but i'm saying that statement, in and of itself, isn't enough. specifically, how would you address the following:
1) getting past that very fast and unpredictable kick
2) hitting a continually resisting opponent 5 times as much as he hits you
3) controlling an opponent who will simultaneously be trying to control you through clinching, kneeing, and elbowing
i'm not saying that you can't do it. i'm not saying that muay thai is superior. i'm asking for more than you gave. i'm asking for specific technical advice, which was the original point of the thread.
stuart b.
Registered User
Lotus Kick is correct!!!in more ways than one.
One cannot state what or how to do it, without looking like someone with lack of experience. Many times only once you are involved in the experience can you understand what or how it is to be executed.
Without meaning to offend anyone here, however, many here on the forum are speaking from lack of experience/confidence in the Wing Chun system, that is why many of you are still responding with technique versus technique answers. This is often attributed with your FEARS in dealing with these types of situations.
CONFIDENCE in the WIng Chun System refers to a state of mind where one is not worried in how to deal with these types of situations. Just Do it!! don't analyze it. Trust yourself your skills and your knowledge!!!
Last edited by Roy D. Anthony; 03-12-2002 at 02:22 PM.
Too funky for myself
you were taught this way? your sifu waxed philosophical about the centerline, told you to have faith in wing chun, and said, "now just do it!!"
surely, when you were learning, technique was discussed. that's not a sign of inexperience. it's a sign of sound teaching method.
personally, i learn technique (some method of movement), i apply it, i learn the principles that make it work, i apply those principles, adjust the technique as necessary, and create a workable solution.
nobody citing technique here is suggesting that it's a question of 'when he does A, you do B.' but technique is a way of conveying an applicable understanding.
okay, i have a feeling this is largely misunderstanding. so i'm going to ask you a similar question to lotus kick. how would you go about conveying your skills in this area to someone else WITHOUT discussing technique?
stuart b.
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