how does shing yi stand up tp pake mae & wing chun

[bamboo]

hello how does xing yi stand up to wing shun and pak mae
i have beeen to many school have we all have seen good pak mae fighters and wing chun fighter but how about shing yi yi have ever seen them in a tournna ments what is the ups and down abot this style expecting a lot of feed back thank u

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Bamboo,

If you're refering to tournament, then you'll be evaluating the styles according to tournament rules which may be biased for / against certain styles.

Looking at the hsitory of Hsing I, it is a style which is battle tested, applied by elite Emperial Guards of china and continue to be part of the cirricuulum to chinese arm forces today. Hsing I belongs in the same league as other effective fighting systems such as Tai Chi, Baji,Piqua, mantis and bagua - as it consist of the same universal factors "the science of it" that makes them effecive.

Whereas, wing chun and pak mae are village styles, never had much of a reputation that is comparable to hsing I

These southern styles operate in a very narrow range of attack and defence - and it is possible to structure a set of rules in a tournament that is optimal for these southern styles.

If you have in mind what these universal factors are, then not only can you evaluate the effectiveness between styles but also same styles - between schools. Thewre are a lot of shonky operators out there who purport to teach hsingI or tai chi for that matter.

If you feel you have understood there factors and can match or defeat the instructor, then most likely there is little more you can learn from that school.

[jon]

Hi Ego
Im bored so im going to respond to your trolls - against my better judgement...

"Hsing I belongs in the same league as other effective fighting systems such as Tai Chi, Baji,Piqua, mantis and bagua - as it consist of the same universal factors "the science of it" that makes them effecive."
* This go's for most good cma at high levels, its EXACTLY that same in Wing Chun and Bak Mei.

"Whereas, wing chun and pak mae are village styles, never had much of a reputation that is comparable to hsing I "
* Wing Chun has ties to Southern Shaolin, Bak Mei has ties to Northen Shaolin and Emai mountain. Nothing village about either of there creation. Xing Yi is so old they cant effectivly trace who invented it! This arguement makes absolutely no sence what so ever.

"These southern styles operate in a very narrow range of attack and defence - and it is possible to structure a set of rules in a tournament that is optimal for these southern styles. "
* Strangley the dead opposite is true, i spar San Shao style using Tai Chi and Bagua, my Hung is rendered almost ineffective by the gloves. Rules are rules they are optimal for whoever has taken the time to addopt them into there training...

"If you have in mind what these universal factors are, then not only can you evaluate the effectiveness between styles but also same styles - between schools."
* Totaly incorrect...
There is NO 'universal factors' to combat that are not painfull obvious ( like dont die ). Its also a impossible to judge others untill you have crossed with them. If Egos statement was the case i would never have found the internal arts at all!
Go meet the instructor train for a while look around research and decide for yourself.

"Thewre are a lot of shonky operators out there who purport to teach hsingI or tai chi for that matter. "
* One of the few parts of Ego's post thats not aimed at causing a stir... This is 100% true, there are many shonky internal instructors. You can usualy tell pretty easily, just be honest with yourself. If you think there is something there for you to learn then stick at it - if you think its suspect then leave.

"If you feel you have understood there factors and can match or defeat the instructor, then most likely there is little more you can learn from that school."
* Good one Ego, why actualy cross hands when you can just watch from a safe distance and make up your own prejudice mind.

bamboo
You wont see many internal masters competing in forms competions as the forms are simply not fast and flashy enough to please a crowd. Its also harder for the crowd to judge internal force and body mechanics. Hence they may not understand why the old man who moved very slowly and relaxed beat the young guy who swung his fists around a lot and yelled loudly.
Xing Yi is an excerlent combat art (as are WC and BM ) its strait forward no nonsence and brutal.
It just doesnt exactly LOOK spectacular, hence you wont see it displayed as much... Which bites the big one imho

[vingtsunstudent]

well, when i saw him ask how do they stand up to wing chun & pak mei, i was going to say by straightening the legs.
but quite simply i don't know, except this be it wing chun, pak mei,
hsing-i, tae kwon do or even mouth boxing, they will be as aggressive or affective as you make them, it's the hard yards that you put in that count.
vts

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

"Hi Ego Im bored so im going to respond to your trolls - against my better judgement..."

Since you've taken the time how could I simply ignore you.

"This go's for most good cma at high levels, its EXACTLY that same in Wing Chun and Bak Mei."

Unfortunately they don't. These styles stay at a faily simplistic level because they didn't have the combat exposure.

"Wing Chun has ties to Southern Shaolin, Bak Mei has ties to Northen Shaolin and Emai mountain. Nothing village about either of there creation. Xing Yi is so old they cant effectivly trace who invented it! This arguement makes absolutely no sence what so ever."

One has to be quite careful about styles claiming to be associated with Shaolin. This association had been for more of a marketing gimick in the past because there was a perception of the "greatness of shaolin" perpertuated by kung fu pop culture. Many people have seen shaolin monks defeating enemy soldiers in the movies compared with the actual history of shaolin monks. I must say, it worked for many styles and otherwise they may not be a popular today. But ultimately, they are village styles -that's it.

Hsing I probably had the foundation in long fist, shares similar concepts to the other styles so mentioned. One would be safe to say they were all co-developed around the same time. Not that practical to pin down the person or groups of persons who formulated the style has it is to know of its fighting reputation even in the arm forces today.

"Strangley the dead opposite is true, i spar San Shao style using Tai Chi and Bagua, my Hung is rendered almost ineffective by the gloves."

Firstly, Hung Gar is not much of a style compared to the other two. Gloves cause some restrictions but thoese northen styles allow you to use your arms to work in close and trap.

"Rules are rules they are optimal for whoever has taken the time to addopt them into there training..."

I imagine what you're saying is not to get into a boxing match with a boxer under boxing rules. That would cut out pretty much all your techniques in TC or Bagua. The boxer would have the upper hand.

"Totaly incorrect... There is NO 'universal factors' to combat that are not painfull obvious ( like dont die ). Its also a impossible to judge others untill you have crossed with them."

It can't be obvious especially most schools i've been to disregard key fundamentals. But i agree with your second point - best way to test one's styles.

"Good one Ego, why actualy cross hands when you can just watch from a safe distance and make up your own prejudice mind."

You don't know until you actually cross hands. Safe distance???? it's not like the other person will kill you or vice versa. It's only hand to hand and the object to gauge one and other's system. There's nothing personal.

[jon]

Hi Ego
"Since you've taken the time how could I simply ignore you."
* A gentleman and a scholar, well almost

"Unfortunately they don't. These styles stay at a faily simplistic level because they didn't have the combat exposure. "
* Yeah ive noticed the simplicty of southern styles in comparison with the total sophisticaion in Bagua and Tai Chi.
I think ill go and practice the single form in each of my internals now actualy

"One has to be quite careful about styles claiming to be associated with Shaolin."
*Agreed but your claiming that Bak Mei and Wing Chun are village styles, im claiming they where created in places VERY different to a village.

"Many people have seen shaolin monks defeating enemy soldiers in the movies compared with the actual history of shaolin monks."
* Can you tell us more about the 'actual history of shaolin monks'? I know that its crowded in mystery but obviously you have a pure transmission. Please show me the light, i was always under the impression it was a buddisht temple where (among other things) people studied kung fu. Obviously im mistaken?

"But ultimately, they are village styles -that's it."
* Can you please clarify this by refering to actual cases of either Wing Chun or Bak Mei having its development within villages?
As far as i know both arts are full of famous figures?

"Hsing I probably had the foundation in long fist, shares similar concepts to the other styles so mentioned. One would be safe to say they were all co-developed around the same time. Not that practical to pin down the person or groups of persons who formulated the style has it is to know of its fighting reputation even in the arm forces today. "
*Agreed...
Now how do you get around the fact Wing Chun is often taught in military settings and Bak Mei's Chung Lai Chun was famous for his teaching of the armed forces in Southern China?

"Firstly, Hung Gar is not much of a style compared to the other two."
* I would tend to disagree with you here, infact im living proof...
I havent let go of practicing my Hung but im training in the internals.

"Gloves cause some restrictions but thoese northen styles allow you to use your arms to work in close and trap. "
*Its more becouse Bagua and Tai Chi are both bigger on throws and footwork. Hung is a very handed style and does not lend itself well to ring fighting. Hung is not a style i can 'play' with but Tai Chi and Bagua are quite easily addapted in terms of concept.

"I imagine what you're saying is not to get into a boxing match with a boxer under boxing rules. That would cut out pretty much all your techniques in TC or Bagua. The boxer would have the upper hand."
* Well its not exactly what i said but i wont disagree with your assesment.

"It can't be obvious especially most schools i've been to disregard key fundamentals. "
* You should go back and teach them a lesson... How DARE THEY!!

"You don't know until you actually cross hands. Safe distance???? it's not like the other person will kill you or vice versa. It's only hand to hand and the object to gauge one and other's system. There's nothing personal."
* Yeah im gonna have to agree with you again.


This has not exactly been a riviting debate...
If we are gonna do this we need to actualy argue about something worth while...

Whats more important fast active footwork or strong stable root?
To put it in classical terms.
Is it better to be...
Heavy as a mountain.
Or
Light as a feather?

Which is more applicable to combat and why?

[vingtsunstudent]

Unfortunately they don't. These styles stay at a faily simplistic level because they didn't have the combat exposure.

It can't be obvious especially most schools i've been to disregard key fundamentals. But i agree with your second point - best way to test one's styles.

Firstly, Hung Gar is not much of a style compared to the other two

so basically what you're saying is that your a fukwit with limited knowledge of these styles as a whole(except for the schools you have seen) who feels they every right to put them down with all 2 cents worth of your knowledge.
wow, intelligence from a higher source or what.

how about you explain wing chun to me, seeing as though you know so much about it. tell me everything you know & then we'll see if you have any right to open your mouth.
my bet is you mention centreline, chain punching maybe chi sao & not much more.(come on give me some details)
how about the system you practice, could you please tell me why it must be vastly superior.
vts

[jon]

VTS
Your signiture rocks

[vingtsunstudent]

thanx bud
vts

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

vingtuen,

I suppose you're the brainiac who figures it all out from a safe distance. That's intellegence for you!

There really isn't much to wing chun. When I had sparred with them, they didn't seem to get any techniques out - or at least any worth mentioning. Who cares about semetics.

[vingtsunstudent]

There really isn't much to wing chun. When I had sparred with them, they didn't seem to get any techniques out - or at least any worth mentioning. Who cares about semetics.

just as i thought, no knowledge of the style in question, just dribble coming out the mouth of a fool.
vts

[Tiger on Duty]

Hi ego
I practice pak mei, chen tai chi chuan and san shou.
Pak mei is no village style if u found out what pak mei means u would find it means white eyebrow, how did it get this name? Why from its founder monk pak mei dao ren, gee i guess he was from a shaolin village then huh for your information monk pak mei was one of the 5 shaolin elders from the southern temple, it is based on internal and external principles which all tai chi , bagua and yes hsing yi all have it shares many similiarites with hsing yi but is not as old only 300-350 yrs old monk pak mei was famous why u ask because he could fight and real well, he killed one of the founders of hung gar hung hei kuen, fong sai yuk, and killed the abbot of the southern shaolin temple( im not saying he was a nice guy or a bad guy) and the style is a pressure point and vital points style created for fast killing and maiming techniques so u wont see its good side in competitions will u???? no in fact pak mei is crap in competitions because they have rules no striking groin,neck,backneck,temples,throat,solar plexus etc and u have to wear gloves which totally screws up pak mei as all i like to do is strike where it hurts which u certainly cannot do in competitions, which is why i do san shou and chen tai chi to fill in the sparring gaps when i dont want to kill someone.
Hope that has been useful ego. By the way u need to do more research.


hsing yi is a very old powerful and well proven style thats only real weakness is that it is a very linear style, front, back and side to side. Thats why hsing yi and bagua are often learnt together so u have straight hsing yi and the circles of bagua a very awesome combo.

[jon]

Tiger on Duty

"he killed one of the founders of hung gar hung hei kuen, fong sai yuk, and killed the abbot of the southern shaolin temple"
* Bak Mei was a brilliant fighter and was certainly the death sentence of many a southern shaolin rebel. However im afraid Hung Hei Gwun died in his late 80s and although there is rumour he did at one point fight with Bak Mei is only a legend.
In the version i heard Bak Mei was killed by Hung Hei Gwuns son.
In another version i heard they both never met and Bak Mei was simply a very good fighter and a priest in Emei mountain. In yet another i heard a ridiculous story about all five elders fighting and all fighting Bak Mei with the ententual winner being Ng Mei
Really its all blantet legend and is best of kept that way, believe what you wish if it makes you happy but try to avoid stating that my kf ancestors where killed in duels when there is no proof

[TIger Hand]

I can see EGGO the "BUTHEAD" is at it again......

We all heard it before "BUTHEAD".......

force multiplying theory?-

yet the Imperial Army lost nearly every major conflict since it's unification.......so much for that.

Shingyi used by the army EXCLUSIVELY?-

Hmmmmmm.......I think I mentioned that Cheung La Chun (bak mei) taught at Wong Po (CENTRAL MILITARY ACADEMY OF KUOMINTANG). I know you have trouble reading that is why i bold.

You sparred Wing Chun people...........?????? HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA.....................Was that with or without your wheelchair?

Give it a rest FOOL, at least change your nick to avoid embarrasment.

[fiercest tiger]

you are a village idiot!

B'gua never won any tourneys here in sydney in the 80's, they all got beaten by ykm,clf, lhbf everytime. now dont say because of the gloves and rules because that i a crock of sh!t, if it was without the gloves then they wouldnt be here...period!

no offence jon, just stating that simplicity is and can be the way. wingchun and bak mei even hung gar is a advance fighting system, what does hsing i have that these dont? five elements hung gar and bak mei, dont know about wingchun here. animals and yin and yang theories also.
They all contain chi kung and strength that hsing i produces too.

you should take a look at your post and rethink the bullsh!T you talk about.

jee shim was killed by bak mei, he broke his neck.

later guys

FT