The road to being a Sifu (discussion)

[BeiTangLang]

I have had an interesting time looking over the bio's for several sifu over the last few weeks. I have been suprised at the quantity of them that have trained under 4 years in their system.
I know that I have not been a die-hard live,eat & breath the art since I have started, but I have not been a slacker either.
I believe that much of ones knowledge comes from "doing time" in the system. 2-3 years just does not seem enough time to warrant the title of Sifu in my eyes.
Any constuctive commentary?
Best Wishes,
BTL

[spiralstair]

Doctor, lawyer, airline pilot, cruise ship captain, surgical instrument maker, etc.., they all are expected to get it right the 1st time. People's lives and/or livelihoods are in their hands. Their average training period lasts for way over 10 years.

Psychologist, counselor, priest, mediator, teacher, etc.., they all are expected to find ways to create a better functioning person. Their average training period lasts over 10 years.

Martial Arts instructor? 10 years sounds about right.

[EARTH DRAGON]

I agree! I had a black belt in okinawian karate which only took 3 years before I reached the sifu level in 8 step which took much longer. In chinese arts there is much more to learn than the usual forms, kicks and blocks. There is the internal side, soft side and medical. It seems as though some systems forget the WHOLE and concentrate on only part of the whole. This is much easier to teach and takes far less time, however if you compare it to old time sifu's now are a dime a dozen. I think it goes with anything that the level or bar has been dropped and the masses are reaching this level based on money or only learning a predetermined level of knowledge. It would seem that in the olden dys the level of sifu would be a great acomplishment as would master or grandmaster. But nowadays one can be a master in 3 easy payments........

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

That kind of touches on my opinion of Sifu's who teach 3 to 5 different styles yet are under 40 years old (not bashing anyone). Currently I'm less than 2 weeks away from being a Sifu (provided I pass) and I've been at it for 12 years. Now, I'm sure I could have done it in 8 years (technically) but the last few years have changed me quite a bit and I've been focusing in areas that didn't interest me as much back then. I'm not sure how much is age related and how much is the result of the amount of time spent training.

A related question would be "How long does it (or should it) take to master a system"? I figure you need at least 10 to 15 years before you really know the system. What do you think?

[BeiTangLang]

I forgot to mention the time I believe to be required.
I fully believe 6-10 years of training;depending upon the system, should be required of a sifu level instructor.
I know this may sound like quite a bit of time but as I have mentioed before, I believe there is a "time-in-system" requirement that should be a factor as well as "sets known", etc, etc.
I cannot/will not believe an instructor is legitamate sifu after studying 2 years without previous similar M/A experience.

While I'm thinking of it, I will post yet another discussion topic;

Respectfully,
BTL

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Is that 6 - 10 years American style (part-time while working and raising a family) or Chinese style (all day every day). I just wonder, if the old masters spent their lives mastering one style how is it that Americans can study part-time while working at a job and master one or more by the time they're in their 40's? I guess it's a sign of evolution.

[BeiTangLang]

I am not talking Mastery of the system, but a true working knowledge of a system enought to teach it proficiently. So to answer your questions HLL,
American style training.

Living here does not lend itself well to the Chinese way of doing things unless you are very rich. *unfortunently*

[EARTH DRAGON]

In this topic several points can be raised.
For example in 8 step we have levels,
four basic (colored sashes) the body cordinations, the eights , the kicks and the sets.

Then the silver level is application to those basics.

Then the gold level, applications to the silver with the (shuai chaio) throws and (chin na fa ) joint locks.

This is where the sifu level begins. This information can be learned in 4 or 5 years, however while learning the movements does not really mean that you KNOW the movements. For example when we learn the 40 throws you have to know them all by memory and perfrom them. This does'nt not mean that you can actually use all 40 in combat or against a resisting opponent. that would take years in itself.
So you have to ask is just knowing the material good enough? poper execution of any one technique can take years to to become proffcient in let alone master.

When performing the sets is just knowing the application good enough? or should you be able to use any given technique properly? again this would tkae many years an double that to master.
GM? well I dont think that in this day and age anyone non chinese can be considered a GM. this takes a lifetime and as hua lin loashi you cannot have a job or modern life things , ie TV, internet, baseball and any other things that use up your time.

[BeiTangLang]

So then,..What of the 2-3 year Mantis Sifu's?

[EARTH DRAGON]

If you are speaking about james shyun 8 step. He has devised what he calls a "sifu" program. You learn everything at a accelerated rate. You attend 2 sifu camps and cover the medical and tai chi and you get your rank. Heres the catch.. it costs 5,000.

While I was not a fan of this idea when he thought about it in the late 90's he formed it anyway, and then told us that we had to elect 1 student from each school to enroll in the sifu program. I honestly told my highest ranking student not to join and that I thought it was not worth the money I told him I would teach him the same thing for free!
I just thought it sounded like a money making scam like the black belt programs that gaurntee you a BB in just one year. 3 schools in my area have this program and it is a bunch of crap! I am a good teacher and care only about my students. If my rent is paid and I have electric and heat I am happy. My profiet lies in teaching and sharing my knowledge with my students not in their pocket books..........

[isol8d]

on the note of american style vs chinese style of learning.

I think it's more 21st century style vs Older style learning. We live in an age where a lot of conviences afford us more & less time. We generally don't have to pump a well for water, but we do have to work to pay our water bills.

But as far as how long until you're qualified to teach, that's interesting, because I think I've learned 30% or more of what I have learned from the students who have been there for a year or two longer than I have.

But they are not my Sifu.

[Stacey]

the belief that training of old consisted on once a week in a park is nonsense.


How about training 5-6 hours a day doing far more than they can bear? Someone training over 10 hours a week is gonna learn much faster than a 2 hour a week student. In fact I have seen references to this training in many sources, chinese literature, comic books, movies, "The Wandering Taoist" A time when they were "on the mountain" for 2-3 years doing intense training for the basic martial ability. It is my understanding that in Sifu camps the education is continued to high levels.

ED. You didn't think it was worth it? How much money did you waste in karate? How much would you spend learning all of that same info?

I'm not a Sifu and unless I can finish my training, I won't ever be, but the time I spent there was worth every penny. Would I trade it all back, all the memories and skill for the cash value? Not in a million years. My Sifu worked me like a dog. 20,000 punches in 40 minutes, 500 frog jumps, countless push ups. Forms, tai chi, flow drills, shiatsu, hitting the mat hundreds of times each practice.

I have more than I can digest as it is. As I practice I can understand more, but since I don't practice like I did, I don't make the connections as fast.


You can say its an americanization, but I have seen Sifu trainees make other blackbelts look stupid. I have seen then personally school other Sifus who never did all the hard stuff and don't have the same base, power, or technique. They are indoor students, the leaders of the school and so they have to have this ability. I too had it, but the training was relentless and kept getting harder.

[PaulLin]

I think if you join the Army, you will get similar result. That has a little to do with Martial Art knowledge.

plus, you get $$ by join the Army, no pay for it.

[EARTH DRAGON]

My karate cost nothing, I was taught by victor vega's student and he tuaght my when he moved from NYC to buffalo and i got hima job and inreturn he taught me for free.

Do I think that paying someone up front 5, 000 to learn kung fu is too much YES. I paid nothing to live with master shyun or become a sifu. I just cleaned the school, teach kids class and run errands. but that was before he was soo greedy and in debt from his divorce and the loss of insurance money from the fire in S.F.

Please dont brag about how much your sifu put you through for I know jack very well and you are exaggerating the truth.
I will not say anything bad about jack becuse he is my freind but remember I came to your school and gave a seminar and had to correct jacks 8's, his sets and even the jointlocks mostly becuse he was focusing on his tae kwon do so please dont lie about your training for I know the truth............. so please be honest with yourself...............

[PaulLin]

Taekwondo and Karate are not compatable with real Chinese Martial Arts. All my father's teachers: GM Wei, GM Chang, GM Wang, GM Han, all talk the same way. They all think that if one still practice TaeKwondo and Karate while practicing Chinese Martial Arts, that the Chinese Martial Arts skills are not good enough. If one has enough level in the real Chinese MA, TKD and Karate will be obsolate.