Notes on Bak Mei Breathing Technique

[mantis108]

This is by no mean representation of all Bak Mei Schools' teachings. These notes are intented to serve as a reference points only. This is not substitution to your study under a qualified Sifu. I do not speak for Bak Mei Pai but I share what little knowledge I have with those who seek my perspective.

Concepts:

Body, Mind and Spirit/breathe as one. There is a heavy Taoist influence in the art. So, a holoistic worldview is adopted.

Adominal Breathing - this allow the rib cage to open more and empowers the diaphram.

Taoist breathing convention is adopted. Inhale - stomache in. Exhale stomache out. Novice level, don't hold your breathe which can cause hyperventilation. Advanced level, your Sifu should guide you.

Tun To are more about breathing. Fao Chum are more about movements. Although, they can be use together. In fact, they should be used together to be effective. For example:

Inhale is Tun (swallow) with Chum (sink). Reconnecting the whole body with Dan Tin (center). Also neuturalize in coming force to the roots. Toes grapping the floor. recton muscle tighten (don't tense up). Whole body is charge with energy but not tense like a log of wood but rather like a bonsai tree.

Exhale is To(split) with Fao(float). This follows Tun (they work together). Release the charge in a relaxed manner. Observe proper body mechanics the "Shock" power will come. It is like Vajra (thunderbolt. Relaxation is the key.

Fao Chum also has a submerge and emerge sense.

Tun To Fao Chum are view as Ging (power mode)

Combining Tun To Fau Chum in movement take a lot of practice and guidence of your Sifu.

Any thoughts?

Mantis108

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Contraria Sunt Complementa

Hi Mantis108,

From your previous postings, I gathered that you are a practitioner of Bak Mei and Lung Ying Mor Kiu.

With regards to your current post on tun tou fou chum, I have a question, hopefully you don't mind.

You explained the mechanics of tun tou fou chum. In your opinion, are these four elements independent of one another or they are related? If related, in what way are they so? ARe they done in a sequential manner, i.e. tun and then tou and then fou followed by chum?

I am just interested to listen to your perspective, especially when you are a practitioner of the arts that are famous for this four elements.

Thanks!

[mantis108]

Hi Integraman,

Excellent question, thank you.

IMHO, I think they are correlated. A Taoist Worldview would suggest that nothing is absolutely indepent of everything else. So Tun is accompanied by To (inhale then exhale or vise versa). It is a cycle. Same as Fao Chum. Tun To as in breathing is not visible but it is behind Fao Chum. The esscence of Fao Chum is Tun To but not the other way around. In other words, the energy is "made" submerged or emerged by good practise of breathing technique but not vise versa.

Yet, it is possible to do Tun and fao instead of Tun and Chum (likewise with To,depending on the movement). It is not necessary to do all of them in sequence.

You are correct in that these elements are important to both Bak Mei and Lung Ying. We often talk about "Sai" (disposition/composture) of a stylist. These elements are first sign of mastery.

BTW, may I ask which art(s) do you study? Please feel free to share your thoughts.

Mantis108

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Contraria Sunt Complementa

Hi Mantis108,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I believe you have no doubt learned your lessons well under your teacher. He must be happy to have a good student like you.

The explanation you gave above are in line with what I understanding about these 4 elements, at least at my current level of understanding.

To further this discussion, IMHO, tun as in swallow can be executed independently, in the sense of swallowing the force using the body mechanics to achieve such means. However, tun without tou is only one part of the story. Hence, in accordance to what you called as Daoist ideologies, tun and tou are complementary, both having the offensive and defensive elements. Tun is usually accompanied by tou. What do you think of this? Please pardon my poor command of english if you don't mind.

On the other hand, I have also came across other perspective on explaining these 4 elements, the most common being the nature of attacks on opponents.

However to my understanding, the four elements are the basic mechanics of generating power and are done within the body, and the visible result falls to the more common explanation mentioned on the prior paragraph.

Integraman

Hi Mantis108,

I forgot to add something.

In Bak Mei, these 4 elements can be found in the most fundamental set, usually "Jik Bo Kuen" while in Lung Ying Mor Kiu, is usually "Sap Luk Tong".

If I am not mistaken, these sets are extremely simple in appearance but serve as a critical and strong foundation for future developement of these styles, and the training of the body mechanics using the 4 elements place a very important role in these sets.

Care to share your thought?

By the way, it appears to me that you are a Cantonese?

Integraman

[mantis108]

Hi Integraman,

Thank you for your compliment. The late Sifu Chow Fok was a wonderful soul and I learned very little from this great master due to my limited ability.

This is very exciting. Our shorthand brothers and sisters have been waiting to have this kind of disscussion for awhile. Thank you for sharing. This is what I would think "Throwing bricks to entice jades". You are right I am a Cantonese from HK (now in Canada). I must say you are very impressive.

I totally agree with your perspective. At the same time, I wish to hear more. So, please enlighten us.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>To further this discussion, IMHO, tun as in swallow can be executed independently, in the sense of swallowing the force using the body mechanics to achieve such means. However, tun without tou is only one part of the story. Hence, in accordance to what you called as Daoist ideologies, tun and tou are complementary, both having the offensive and defensive elements. Tun is usually accompanied by tou.[/quote]

This statment makes me more curious about your study. I surmise you are at least advanced level CMAist if not a master yourself. Simple yet powerful... (I'm must confess. I am having one of those pensive moment reading your post) Indeed, well put.

Your knowledge in the 2 systems are equally stunning. Not many people understand Jik Bo and Sup Luk Tong can be practice as Chi Gong. Especially Jik Bo. If these 4 elements are mastered, even the most simple movement becomes charged with power.

This is great. Please share more of your thoughts

You are welcome to email me at sifu1@internorth.com

Mantis108




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Contraria Sunt Complementa

Hi Mantis108,

Many thanks for your compliment. I think we should do away with those compliment thing and get started on our discussion.

To start with, I have to disappoint you but to say that I am just a mere beginner, in no way possess any advance knowledge on CMA.

With regards to Tun Tou Fou Chum, IN GENERAL, I believe they are the essense of the Southern styles. By no means an authority on any style, but I have came across these words being mentioned in other system, mainly the Fujian White Crane.

To me, Tun Tou Fou Chum is the main concept behind generating the power or ging in Cantonese. The power being generated might look very external from the naked eyes, but in reality it isn't. The mechanics on executing these four elements can be consider as a combination of internal and external, internal being the role of the mind in uniting the hei, shan and ying while there lies a subtle body mechanics to generate this type of power.

To accompany these 4 elements in training and fighting is the usage of body posture, or Shan Ying, sort of like what you labeled as "Ji Sai" if I understand you correctly?
Each and every school has their own characteristics of how do use the body posture and these body postures mark the distinctive trademark on each different style.

To sum up, IMHO, a good Bak Mei and Lung Ying Mor Kiu practitioner will pay tremendous amount of attention in cultivating these four elements and also investigate the characteristics of these styles' body posture with regards to the concepts and principles found in the system. To do this, one of course need a teacher and more importantly, herein lies the importance of thoroughly understanding the forms.

Well, I hope I didn't ramble too much. Care to add, correct or share your thought?

I really enjoy this discussion alot!

Thanks for bringing this whole topic up

[MoQ]

What about the 8 Powers and 3 Borders?
I can't agree with "swallow/spit" being inhale/exhale. I think "swallow"(-ing the stomach) certainly doesn't connotate taking IN an abdominal breath, but the action can pull in a small high short breath and combined immediately with "spit", or applying "sink" to crush that which was swallowed. Often though, the "swallow" action can be as a complete emptying to create a momentary, tiny "black hole" to steal the power from an aggressive thrust.

Also, shouldn't "sink" be exhale and "float" be inhale? Hard to sink when you're filling with air and hard to float while deflating, right?

All this is merely a "natural" perspective of the effect the actions(that develop the "powers") have on the body. Although many Taoists believe in breathing normally all the time no matter what is happening, in fact the art of Taoist breathing is quite refined and small bursts of inhale or exhale can be trained to internal response by way of Taoist diaphragmatic exercises and breathing formulas.

At any rate, the cultivation of these powers is the #1 priority past simply learning the movements... THIS is why Masters, not only STILL practice the simple seeming forms(like Jik Bo Kuen, Chung Bo Kuen, Som Bo Gin etc...all those 3 steps forward type forms), but they practice them with more of a "slow internal" attitude than they had when they were younger.


"Without the power we call "ging", this gungfu would be ineffective"

[LION]

absorbing information....

[This message has been edited by LION (edited 08-31-2000).]

[mantis108]

Great response going. We will do away with pleasantry then.

Here are a few dynamics going, I will address them seperately.

On Power:

I'm of the view that Hakka styles categorize power in 4 areas and that they work together. Lik (muscular), Hey (endurance*), Nei Hey (intrinsic energy), Gang Ging (shock power, I would describe this as Vajra) are like the four limbs of a fetus. If the limbs are not developed together, you'll have a very deformed bady (another Taoist convention). Again, they are correlated and codependent of each other. We can further discuss this if anyone is interested.

Addressing MoQ's comment

You are right Tun To Fao Chum are more than simple breathing. You have addressed the power mode of the Tun To Fao Chum while I was addressing the basic mechanics of these elements. As for the Sink/Float, I was addressing a more advanced variation. Think in terms of a balloon when filled with gases that it floats. I guess I should use the term "charged with energy" or "summon energy" instead. The Chinese word "Tye" (lifting) comes into mind.

About understanding

It is important not to intellectually "understand" rather intuitively "experience" your very only energy signature. Thunderbolt means nothing to me when I first starting CMA. Now it is a different story.

About practice

It is important to understand that physical conditioning and meditation are of equal importance because they facilitate a most favourable condition for the body, mind, and spirit to correctly perceive the ultimate reality or the truth whichever way you prefer to label "IT".

More thoughts?

Mantis108

P.S. Lion, I was wondering where you were. Thanks, I am glad that you enjoy this thread.



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Contraria Sunt Complementa

[Kevin Barkman]

Hello - I would like to contribute to this, although I understand very little of what is being said.

In my own limited understanding, Fao and To do not necessarily go together. In my past discussions with my Sifu, he laughed at me for making such absolute distinctions. In his opinion, the two (fao/chum) may be combined with the other two (tun/to), depending on the skill of the practitioner. If one makes such a connection, they are a bit limited in their options. In other words, these four concepts are NB, but should be "combinable" to a high level practioner. Almost like only knowing how to do "mor-cup" on the right side only.

Cheers - kevin

Hi Mantis108,

I have a question for you specifically on the manifestation of these 4 elements.
Is it correct to say that in order to produce such amount of power, the whole body including the arms have to be fully relaxed but not limp?

In another words, to an observer, a Bak Mei or Lung Ying guy might be tensing his arm to generate the power but in reality, the power is being produced using the 4 elements. It just look hard but it is not.

Please correct me if I am wrong. Thanks!

[Lau]

Hi,

Imo the 4 elements create the power. Relaxedness in the body transports it. But on the end of the punch/movement there must be power in the fist.

So I believe the arm must be tensed, but only at the last moment.

By the way, good to hear that there are a lot of people who share the opinion of the importance of jek bo! I think hard work on this form is the 'secret'

Regards, Lau

[Lu Chi-hwa]

Hi integraman,
You asked:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by integraman:

I have a question for you specifically on the manifestation of these 4 elements.
Is it correct to say that in order to produce such amount of power, the whole body including the arms have to be fully relaxed but not limp?

[/quote]

In the Bak Mei I learned: when you produce power (ie punch, claw), your legs are the root. So legs, hip are tensed but your upper body is relaxed.

In my school they teached breathing from the first day on! First natural, later reversed. The reversed breathing was used in seperate qi gung exercises. After a while it begame natural.

Question:
When you do qi gung exercises, you always end with some rubbing/massage. This to let the qi, flow normal again in case you did the exercise wrong. But in walking the set, though breathing/qi gung is involved, you do not do this kind of rubbing. Why is that?

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Lu Chi-hwa

[Lau]

Hi Lu Chi-hwa,

Can you please tell me why reverse breathing is better for pak mei than natural breathing?

Regards, Lau