Mind intent (yi) and Fa Jing

[Ray Pina]

When practicing drilling fist, is it your intention to make it "look" like your teacher's, have the same shape, same weight distribution?

Or is your intention to fu(king bust down or through any shielding or bridging the imaginary foe puts up! Have faith in the shape and the tork. Don't just stop there. Follow it up with a heavy secondary blow to fill the opening.

I am just a "white belt" in these matters, but that is how I practice intent. I don't try to get too philosophical wiht it. I think its label speaks for itself. Intention. This is a matter of combat. No time for a willy-nilly mind set. Calm? Yes. But feroscious and overwhelming like a long traveling hurricane swell.

Intention. I love it. I think I have more of a Hsing-I mindset. I like to go right in. But will solve the problems that arise with a more flexible realisticness. If the mass is too much I'll just let it bounce me out while shielding. By my intent remian the same.

[count]

I'm glad you see I was not just being facetious with my door analogy. This is exactly the intent necessary to knock down a door. Have you ever tried to push a door that should have been pulled. That is power that comes from not thinking. If you walk through a door without opening it and your body is developed and alignment just right you will knock it down with intent. That is the difference between trying to externally kick down the door which is much harder to do.

Your analogy of being able to pick up a car off a loved one is another example of not thinking, just doing. But I'm not sure it is relative.

If you tell me you can physically effect someone from a distance without touching them, I would go out on a line and tell you this has little to nothing to do with yi, chi or li. This is not what you train in martial arts. There are no short cuts. Under the guidance of a good instructor and with hard work and sweat you develop your body, mind and spirit to do what is necessary without having to think about it.

[EARTH DRAGON]

Good post count, you and I are thinking alike.

I was going to say it reminded me of a seminar with a famous aikido master from japan. he talked about not thinking comming from intent, and then used te example of lifting a pop can that was empty, you lift with the amount of force that your body needs from subconcoinous, not from concoinous, SP?
if you think first this does not happen but I am sure all have experienced this is one way or another.

[Nexus]

For instance when you kick something that appears to be soft and stub your toe. No person escapes the confines of the earthly realm without stubbing their toe at least once.

- Nexus

[count]

ED, I almost used the soda can anology but I wanted to set up a post with my first post then go in through the "back door", Kind of a bagua thing.

Nexus, I totally broke my toe one time kicking a table with 10 boxes or so on top. Turned out the boxes were full.

Seriously though, that's my interpretation of empty force. This has nothing to do with moving people from a distance. IMHO (bamboo)

[bamboo_ leaf]

“This has nothing to do with moving people from a distance. IMHO (bamboo)”

ouch!! Well I had to reread everything I wrote to make sure of what I said.


Mmm don’t quite understand about the reference to the leaf.

I will say a few things on this, not moving people form a distance but working off others intent. From what I have felt and now in the process of internalizing it has totally changed my outlook on how many things are done. At least in the leafs world.

The mind leads the chi follows, is a common saying. What dose this mean and how dose one use it. For me it’s a way of approaching the intent or will of doing something and then following with the action itself.

Many have used walking into the door as an example, most have said it is very natural, all things that I can agree with. But I would add that for some the ability to feel the intention of someone about to walk though the door allows one to open the door just as they walk up to the door.

The person walking has no choice but to follow since their intent has preceded the action. Another common saying, “ he starts late but arrives fist” again referring directly to the ability to feel the intention of the other.

So I think the point is not so much making people move or react against their will but rather with their will unknown by them at a conscious level.

The poster said, “A movement without intent is nothing. An intent without movement is nothing too.” I disagree; I would call a movement with out intent empty, but still useful.

one with intent solid, TC is a way of directly practicing this concept. dose one have to have the idea of an ememy to parcticd it i don't think so. but many use this to build the idea of intention. After you can work with it directly becase you know it.

Intent without movement now there is a very good statement but I think wrong in the postes context. if you look at many IMA systems the higher the level the less the outer movement used. every wonder why?

people react to intent if it is strong enough it is called a threat.

It said the highest-level people can practice with out moving. Masters can with a look stop things from happening.

I know that each parent has this look too, I just wish that more would use it.

Remember the premise it’s not about making people move against their will, having a strong intent tends to cause people to want to move. Being able to tell when they want to move allows one to “start late but arrive first” to help them complete the movement they want to do.

Try this; allow some one to rest their hands on your arm.
Have a strong intention of moving or expanding against their hands. When you feel their intention to resist this with draw yours. If they stumble forward then you have captured their intention. If not and they tend to follow your arm in then it could mean that you are too tense and need to relax more or your intent still needs to be worked on.

Much of this you really have to feel, the other part is your own ability to sense what is really happening. I would say not easy with out many yrs of practice with people who can do it.


As Danile M. said “Yi is the most frequently misunderstood element of internal arts, resulting in forceful pushing of the qi around”

It takes a while, even working with some one it takes awhile. But for those that i ahve met who can do it, I have no words to describe it.

[Zantesuken]

hi hvaen't been on in a while cause school's in the way but yeah.
intent i guess i was talking to a sifu i met today who was really really good. i got to train with him for 3hours. i learned a lot of stuff out of him for that 3 hours
anyways my mentality is sort of set in chinese mode so my phrasing might be weird.
so training yi someone said something about standing meditation yeah that's all good to. since your intent comes from your mind then standing meditation helps a lot. it trains you to clear your mind and it memorizes things better. haha see memorize that's not the word i'm looking for but it's the half assed tranlation i can give. one other sifu i knew for a bit had this international tai chi society and he'd been teaching for maybe 20 years or more cause he was pretty old and now he's deceased. he could remember everyone he'd met in his life. now i'm not saying that a normal person can't do that but this guy knew their faces, where they were from and every little thing they ever told the sifu.
so if yi comes from the miind then the postures will definately train it. also i find that pushing hands can help to. when you go back to push out again focus forward. look forward. when you do warmup excercses here comes stupid translation because i do not know the eng name for this: toa yiew? haha i don't knowit ****it! anyways if anyone konws what that is translate it.
but when you do that you gotta train your intent forward as if you're pushing someone.
there's no one particular way to train it but everything helps. do your form and think as if you're fighting someone. you want to sink and deflect their energy and then bounce back at them. man now that i'm sorta backtracking my post has weird phrases haha. anyways nature calls. hope it helps

[count]

IMO language pretty much fails in giving any meaningful descriptions other then what is generally said in many TC practice gyms. So while many can say it IMHO only a few really know it.

If you run in to some one who can show this and has some understanding of it consider your self very lucky follow that person until you can find and develop it within.

Many important concepts have been discussed in this thread having nothing to do with intent. Without crossing the line between shen and yi which many posters in this thread have already done, this is my point. You can not feel the intent of high level practitioners. For any action learned there is first understanding and trying, than there is knowing and just doing. The poster said, “A movement without intent is nothing. An intent without movement is nothing too.” I too disagree with this statement. There can be no movement with out intent and intent without moving is only hesitation. A movement with intent ONLY feels empty. When you add in muscle and/or force, then the intent can be felt. It is not empty. The result will causes you to, as Daniel M said, forcefully push around qi.

Much of what you (bamboo) have said in your last post have to do with shen chi. That would be an excellent topic for another thread. But I would say if your intention is to throw your opponent to the ground the use of shen chi is essential in projecting your chi outside your own sphere of energy. But focus and intent are two different concepts. One is the action the other is the thought.

Just a thought

[Ray Pina]

Count knows too much. The more I read his posts the more wise I see him to be.

Bamboo Leaf, I agree with what you wrote but don't know what you call it. I stumbled upon it myself about 5 years ago. People's minds can be led. Or, is it simply destiny that we are aware of before the fact.

Example, hmmm: Low level: thinking of someone and then they call.

More practical. You're crossing the street and some retard driving towards you has their head up their but or rather down at the floor or radio. You give them that look, gaze, and they look up, catch your eye and swerve to another lane.

Or, you're trying to perhaps sneak something into a club and the bouncers are kind of tight so you kind of go into invisibility mode while the three loud guys in front of you get pulled to the side and you get waved in.

Is it your mind, focus affecting the outside, or simply the turning off of your mind to allow IT to work out is course for the betterment of all.

OK, too philosophical. I have also learned on my own to not use this to influence others, IE, drunk girls, people making descisions that could be in my favor, gambling, ect. . I consider that investing in future bad karma. I believe we all posses the power of the divine but are not the one mysterious entity. One can get caught up with mind games and power and eventually ruin themselves.

I wonder if anyone can understand this giberish or if I'm simply mad.

[count]

Count knows too much. The more I read his posts the more wise I see him to be.

LOL, Thanks EvolutionFist, 2 compliments in 1 day. I may take you up on your offer from the NYC thread. It's my INTENTION to come to NYC again sometime although, I already have several trips planned for this year and next. But if you get to LA, the same offer holds. I'm not too far from the good beaches too

[prana]

Originally posted by bamboo_ leaf

The mind leads the chi follows, is a common saying. What dose this mean and how dose one use it. For me it’s a way of approaching the intent or will of doing something and then following with the action itself.

If one focuses, that is simply rests the mind on an area (unlike the misconception of focus, craving), lets pick the right palm. There comes a moment when the mind rests in the intended spot without wavering.

The poster said, “A movement without intent is nothing. An intent without movement is nothing too.” I disagree; I would call a movement with out intent empty, but still useful.

unfortunately, the habit of the mind is a learned phenomena. Such as walking, we take for granted but the minds intent is there at every moment to lift, step, pull back, balance etc. Hence we say, if your mind is truly focussed, your body begins to stiffen.

I think the "movement without intent" is the habitual pattern of a human being, we only learn enough to move it, and we scater our minds elsewhere, and not give a second thought about it. Hence we think it is possible to "move without intent" but underlying subtlely, the mind is constantly and noisily moving our limbs to accomodate our most gross or conscious cravings (thoughts).

If your qi no longer arrives, how can you move the part ? If you mind is not intending, how can your Qi arrive ? If your mind is tamed, how can your non-intention arrive ? So where is the gateway to your center ?

it is like sleep, we are given a chance every night and day to answer that question, but none so stay conscious enough to witness the phenomenon.

Great post Mr Leaf

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

In my own experience, the gateway to the center is through sincerity and purpose.. sincerity, be sincere with yourself and fellow beings.. comitt fully to each choice, including the choice to follow a particular path.. Purpose, live deliberately.. affirm each choice with the deeds to manifest it in its fullness.. it is the quality of choices that determine the quality of your life experience..

With those attitudes one will examine the potential of the art, seek its worth according to their purpose and take the necessary time and effort to find their own center.. each of us has a different "center", a martial artist has a different center than an ascetic monk.. The skilled martial artists blends the physical and spiritual aspects of the whole being, maximizing the experience with an understanding that we are, fundamentally, pure energy behaving in a certain way.. that our consciousness can orchestrate this energy through "sincere and deliberate" intentions.. that we can bypass the dogmatic and indoctrinated thought process and manifest the intention "in real-time"..

Ones center is at the heart of their intentions.. we see the effect in the quality of their art.. we feel the effect when we cross hands.. our center adjusts to the intentions of the other, we neutralize.. our intention is to occupy space where the other is, our Qi makes it so.. the battle is won or lost at the level of intention.. one will have more clarity and resolve to their intentions than another and their Qi will respond accordingly.. (but, part of the intention is to have trained well enough to have the tools to manifest it)..

Whew!! i got too deep for even me.. sorry, guys and gals.. but what the heck..

[Nexus]

Ones center is at the heart of their intentions..

I agree with that, and would like to add that ones center is also ones determination to carry through with those intentions.