Did William Cheung add Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun to his Wing Chun

[FIRE HAWK]

I herd that William Cheung added Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun to his Wing Chun or that he learned Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun and mixed it with his Yip Man Wing Chun is this true ?

[zuxingpogi]

As far as I know as a student of the Cheung lineage, under chief instructor Dana Wong, it is incorrect or I have never heard of such a statement before. This is neither mentioned in his biography or any of the stories that I have heard of his history. But it would be interesting if it is true.
But until then
Peace
-Bernard

[FIRE HAWK]

During his teenage years, William Cheung was famous for fighting other Kung Fu styles and winning using Wing Chun Kuen while in Hong Kong. William was a close friend of Bruce Lee and served as his role model for a HK Wing Chun fighter. William then left for Australia, where he went on to promote his own style of Wing Chun Kung Fu, different from the form taught to him by Yip Man. Recently some have theorized that this style was a variant of Hung Suen or perhaps Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun. Perhaps someone versed in both systems will compare the forms of both systems to see if indeed this was the other "traditional" Wing Chun system William may have learned from an as yet un-named teacher while in South China or the new territories.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At this website

http://www.wingchun.com/WilliamCheungmain.htm

[anerlich]

There appear to be some interesting similarities between TWC and HFY. Arguably, TWC looks more like HFY than TWC looks like other YM substyles.

There is unfounded speculation that William Cheung spent several years in mainland China to escape HK justice for certain illegal activities, where he may have met this rumoured HFY teacher. More unfounded speculation has it that Saint Bruce had to leave HK for the US because of his involvement in the same activities.

William Cheung himself has neither confirmed nor refuted this AFAIK. To do so would require a recanting of his rather, er, controversial version of WC history and thus seems unlikely.

And until he or someone related to the fabulous HFY mystery man makes some definitive statement, it remains nothing more than speculation.

[reneritchie]

As Andrew said, having seen both TWC and HFY almost side by side on 3 or so occaisions, they seem far closer to each other than either does to any other branch (as, for example, YKS and YM look closer to each other than either does to TWC)

There is nothing but *rumor* at this point, and I've heard several different "stories" from all different sides:

- Yip Man learned Hung Fa Yi while hiding from the Yunnan army (after his altercation with the armed soldier in Foshan) in Guangzhou before going to HK and only taught it to William Cheung

- William Cheung went to China before going to Australia and learned HFY from Garrett Gee's sifu or sihing

- Combination of above (Yip learned some HFY and then arranged for Cheung to go back and learn more)

- Gee sifu learned some WCK on the mainland then found Cheung's material, thought it really was more traditional, and engineered HFY

- Gee sifu was a private student of William Cheung's in San Fran (where Cheung sifu always arranged for some time to be spent during his visits to the US) for many years.

Personally, none of these stories really make sense to me (each raises as many questions as theorizes answers). We might simply never know, or wait until Cheung and Gee sifu fill us in.

In any case, while there are similarities, both men have distinct systems that they've put a lot of time and effort into cultivating, so what, if any connection there may be might not be their or their student's primary concern.

Rgds,

RR

[zuxingpogi]

Ah far more history and clouded controversy to fill the book. I have found many interesting reads, on many sites about the topic. I guess its just another thing we will never know. Some people spend their entire lives searching for answers that may never come. Better spent time on mental and physical training to make yourself a better person.
Thanks guys
Peace
-Bernard

[Phil Redmond]

I read that Garrett Gee learned Huen Suen Wing Chun. Can someone tell me where the name Hung Fa Yi came from?
PRedmond

[reneritchie]

Hi Phil,

In the latter stages of writing Complete Wing Chun, Robert Chu (one of the co-authors), while visiting family in SF, was introduced to Garrett Gee sifu, who at the time called his art Hung Suen (Hong Chuan/Red Junk), in honor of the WCK ancestors tracing back to Cheung Ng.

After Complete Wing Chun, the material coming out (through Benny Meng at that point), used the name Hung Fa Yi (Hong Hua Yi/Red Flower Righteous).

If memory serves, Meng sifu or one of Gee sifu's other students, explained that Hung Suen was a public name for the system, and Hung Fa Yi was the private name for it. I think some of their more recent publishings may indicate they don't believe their system came from the Red Junks anymore, so Hung Suen may not have been the best name.

Anyway, far as I know, its the same system, just 2 variant names.

Rgds,

RR

[Rolling_Hand]

Rene Ritchie sez:
--There is nothing but *rumor* at this point, and I've heard several different "stories" from all different sides.

Expecting people to erase their differences is unrealistic. There's no shortage of provocative statements, watch where you put the decimal point. You could inadventenly pay out more than you owe - Things aren't as dire as you thought, it should be the other way around. In other words, TWC is TWC and HFY is HFY.

[anerlich]

Expecting people to erase their differences is unrealistic. There's no shortage of provocative statements

But this isn't really the case. There aren't really any "arguments" or "differences" between the two camps (HFY and TWC). There's not the usual exchange of insults and insinuations that characterises the communication between (too) many WC camps.

There may be some relationship between the two, but the only ones discussing it don't know, and those that do (or might) aren't telling.

As a TWC devotee for upwards of 12 years, I got real interested in this connection for a while (it requires far less suspension of disbelief than the Leung Bik/Yip Man/ William Cheung stories), but gave it up after a while as all the avenues of enquiry turned out to be dead ends.

In other words, TWC is TWC and HFY is HFY.

Ah, but the patches on my gi say "Hung Suen Wing Chun". TWC mightn't be HFY, but it IS Hung Suen apparently.

[Rolling_Hand]

--Ah, but the patches on my gi say "Hung Suen Wing Chun".

It makes you nervous how things look better on gi than they do in real life. LOL!!! But have faith.

[Chango]

Hello Firehawk,
I must say that you are not doing to good on setting up a good enviorment for you to learn at the VTM. Keep in mind you have the ability to ask such questions directly to the VTM which has very good relations with both TWC and HFY. It would only be logical for you to ask this question to the VTM privately. This would prevent such bad speculation and wasted energy.
You really should look more into the proper etiquette before asking such questions. If you want to know something about someone you really should ask them directly if you are not confortable with that even a close friend but not the general public. This behaviour makes me question your motives behind such questions. I hope these are inocent mistakes from what the late and wise Siguang Moy Yat would call "young kung fu". The VTM's doors are open to you please be mindful of this.

To address this question. first I have to qualify myself. I have had quiet a few personal encounters with Sibak Gaung William Cheung both in siminars and a night out on the town in Hong Kong! on the HFY side I'm a member of the HFY family at the VTM. So I have to say that to the untrained eye it would seem that the two would have something in common. but as Rene says they are no more alike then any other WCK styles. So any speculation would be only that and would have no grounds in truth. Sibak Guang William Cheung and his Kung fu family has taken enough lip service from those who do not understand it. we should appreciate it for what it is and choose either to learn it or not. but not knowing that system and trying to speculate on it's so called "true origins" is a real diservice to TWC and in the end a real disservice to yourself. Sibak Guang William Cheung has been a guest at the VTM a few times and has been generous with his information and the sharing of TWC.

On HFY's origin and history I can only say this.
Siguang Gee has presented the history of HFY to the VTM. At that time the all of the VTM members had been of the Yip Man lineage. So there is no reason for bias! The information that Siguang had provided had been checked and cross checked not only by the VTM. But several reputable non-martial arts museums in mainland China. And it comes back as the best posible representation of Wing Chuns history to date! some may argue points here and there but it historically no other lineage has laid out such a conclusive representation of the history. this is not me or the VTM talking this is what has been confirmed by these museums! All of the others have problems in logic and historical controdictions. So to asume that HFY is anything but what it is would be laughable on any level. Anyone that has understands the HFY can also confirm how unique it is just by it's content. THERE IS NOTHING ELSE LIKE IT PERIOD! firehawk you have a opertunity to find out what I mean. So please just do that and lets not use our time spinning our wheels with the public. If you want to know something come and find out don't take other peoples words for it. once you experience it you can then make these calls for yourself. HFY like all anything else may not be for everyone. I'm just glad the I found it becuase I know it is for me. thank you for your time.

Chango (saat geng sau)

[FIRE HAWK]

Sorry the only reason i wanted to know if William Cheung learned Hung Fa Yi is because so i could look in his books and get an idea on what Hung Fa Yi might be like i was not trying to cause any trouble.Again sorry i have all William Cheungs books and i found that article and so i thought that William Cheungs Wing Chun might be the same as Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun but i see that they are not the same Wing Chun Arts .I just wanted to know some more about Hung Fa Yi thats all .

[reneritchie]

RH - Huh?

Chango - Good stuff! A couple quick points, however. First, though probably unintentional, your response on "etiquette" (it's not actually etiquette that you're describing) could come off as a repression of communication and sharing; the very thing, it's my understanding, the VTM tries to promote. There's really no such thing as a bad question, just better and worse ways of answering. For an example, I was recently questioned on the wingchunkuen.com board about some points Leung Ting raised on my system. I didn't try to shut the person down, but answered each point, one by one, and tried to back up my statements with facts anyone could themselves verify. No one has anything to hide, so if someone asks if SNWCK or HFY or GLWCK come from secret Tibet Yeti teachings, we can just answer "no" and realize that sometimes enthusiastic questions are the price we pay for making information public.

Second, while I respect everything you guys are doing, as you're aware, a great deal of real historical information, as published by scholars both here and in China (Qin, Murray, etc.), contradicts the very core of all known WCK creation stories, including HFY. To state otherwise without providing specific references, IMHO, just confuses people who might assume the stamp on the cover means all's well inside, and even in the case of finding references (you can find all sorts of "historical" references in China, even about modern events), due to the contradictions, it is still impossible to speak in absolutes.

Rgds,

RR

[FIRE HAWK]

Next time i will be more careful on what i ask most of the things i post are just questions on things that i want to know about .I never thought that the William Cheung post would cause so much trouble next time i will think before i post something.Again my intentions where only to learn more about Hung Fa Yi and not cause any trouble .