New/Old Rear Bear Hug Tech...

[draco]

Are there any techniques in your material that you might share with us in the release of a rear bear hug.

Please discribe a situation and how to get released. Use your imagination.

thanks

[EARTH DRAGON]

In a rear bear hug the most important thing is to be able to breath. If they squeeze to tightly you can loose your breath.
To avoid this simply touch your hands together or get them as close as possible to the dantien. This will automatically bring the arms and the elbows closer to your center and allow you to breath. This is becuse the opponent cannot get the proper hold to constrict the diaphram. This can be done even after they have a hold.

Second is to reach around and grab the testicals. This sounds barbaric but it works. If you grip and twist they will let go.

Thier is not need to be quick in the technique for the simple reason is both thier hands are occupided.

Some times reverse head but will work but only 3 or 4 out 10 times.

Also if you are being picked- up while in a bear hug you can avoid that by wrapping the instep or top of your foot around the back of his calf. This creates leveredge and he will not be able to lift you.

[mantis108]

In 18 Lohan Gong, Road #1, 2, 7, 8 and 17 (7 Star's version) are different ways to deal with the rear bear hugs. There are also techniques to counter takedowns (frontal, rear and lateral.) My view is that the 18 Lohan was developed by monks for both physical exercise and self defense mainly against bullies and muggers. Many of the techniques are elementary self defense. Keeping it simple and effective is key. Hope this help. Tainan Mantis may be of great help here since he's the one who showed me the form.

Mantis108

[bungda07]

Mantis108, Can yourself or Tainan Mantis explain more about the martial aspect against bearhug using 18 Lohan road # 1, 2, 7, 8, 17. Just one would help me see this clearer.

I have WHF book on 18 Lohan, Can't translate yet.

Mantis108, Do you have a website?
As always, yourself and Tainan Mantis contribute greatly to the Forum. Thanks.

V/r

Steve M.

[mantis108]

"Mantis108, Can yourself or Tainan Mantis explain more about the martial aspect against bearhug using 18 Lohan road # 1, 2, 7, 8, 17. Just one would help me see this clearer."

Certainly, I will be glad to be of help.

Since you have the book, I will use it to reference the moves. Please keep in mind that Tainan Mantis' version is slightly different then WHF's version. But if you put the 2 together, they provide a fasinating amount of details that compliment each other very well. They are turely treasures of PM.

I will take Road #2 for example. BTW, Earth Dragon pointed out the essential details, which are crucial for the success of the move. I will also borrow his words here to help explain #2. I will also use the naming convention and translated text of the book as references. Let's start with the move first and then reference the text with the move. It is also important to remember that the text and the moves (of the book) are not exact match in certain areas; however, it is rather out of topic here. So I won't speculate the reason.

18 Lohan Gong Road #2

The move:

First step:

Attacker will have ED's intension in mind

"In a rear bear hug the most important thing is to be able to breath. If they squeeze to tightly you can loose your breath. "

Defender will assume stance #1 pic#6

This is to create space for you to work with and to avoid being "choke" out of breath. The Namasté hand position provides great leverage for lifting the hug up a bit for you to execute the next move.

ED provided this detail which is great if you are relatively slow in respond to a somewhat secured rear bear hug. Simply go into the Namasté position after what ED suggested.

"To avoid this simply touch your hands together or get them as close as possible to the dantien. This will automatically bring the arms and the elbows closer to your center and allow you to breath. This is becuse the opponent cannot get the proper hold to constrict the diaphram. This can be done even after they have a hold."

Next step:

Perform stance 2 pic#7

This is the move, which ED suggested, and it's the stretch out palms and then to the back and come forward. You need to observe a few things. 1) you namasté stance lifted the hug and give you enough room to do the following step. 2) He will most likely try to avoid you groin strike(s) and try to counter with a takedown or uproot you somehow. You need to work fast. 3) he might even try to force the hug thigh. Anyway if he shift to avoid the groin strike(s). You will carry on with the next steps.

"Second is to reach around and grab the testicals. This sounds barbaric but it works. If you grip and twist they will let go."

[Thier is not need to be quick in the technique for the simple reason is both thier hands are occupided. ]

this detail doesn't apply here. You need to work fast in this situation for taking him down. Remeber your counter is to do a takedown on him.

[Some times reverse head but will work but only 3 or 4 out 10 times.]

This detail will help distract him but this is not required for Road #2

Next step:

Stance 3 pic #8, 9

As ED suggested the following detail which is useful:

"Also if you are being picked- up while in a bear hug you can avoid that by wrapping the instep or top of your foot around the back of his calf. This creates leveredge and he will not be able to lift you."

Your horse stance now shifted to the back of his calf since he moved to avoid your groin strike(s). The hand position in the book is not very clear but it provide an idea of how your hands would position during the takedown counter. especially pic #9. You will be somewhat holding his forearm for leverage and prevent him to escape the throw.

Second Road Text (translation)

Title:Warlord clear and press cauldron

Text:

Seperate hands and push at chest
Eagle's wings open wide and empty
Close the anus so that Water and fire come together
Two ears (handle) hang red cicada
Up and down relied on the strength of the kidneies
Bend the waist lower the knees feet become light
Practicing Gong quite need to learn the secrets (details)
Always keep the awareness.

Stance 1
Both hands part water two legs use strength

Stance 2
Double punch seperate crotch and move the staddle ride the horse

Stance 3
Great eagle open wing with full body power

Stance 4
Clear and press tons lift club ride the horse.

Stance 5 (Gigong Closing)
Golden pan holds the moon with whole body spirit and strength.
"Fire Forged Golden Pill"

-end of the move-

"I have WHF book on 18 Lohan, Can't translate yet. "

This book is quite hard to translate. As you can see from the above example. They often not make much sense. But if you are familiar with the Taoist code then the task will be much easier. You can somewhat see the self defense move descriptions from the titles of the stance.

Again, the details/text in the book is not exactly the same but it provides an idea of how the form is like. To really get the true flavour of the 18 Lohan, I will suggest to learn from/consult those who have worked with it.

"Mantis108, Do you have a website? "

Yes, the url is www.taijimantis.com It hasn't been updated for a while. We will be updating it soon.

But if you are interested info. about TJPM. Please visit our TJPM forum. Questions about techniques are welcome there as well.

TJPM Forum

"As always, yourself and Tainan Mantis contribute greatly to the Forum. Thanks."

Thank you for the encouragement. Really appreciate that. I am sure that Tainan and I are both glad to share our views and to promote Praying Mantis Kung Fu.

Regards

Mantis108

[Tainan Mantis]

ED,
If you had said,"This is from 18 Lohan Gong."
I would have said ,"Yes. That sounds like it."

18 Lohan gong also has techniques for placing your opponent in a front bear hug.

I believe it moves like a chi gong type exercise because of the way it teaches you to breath when someone is applying a bear hug in several of the moves.

I used to think this was an unwise move until one day in America this skinny kid was talking about how so and so made him angry.

"But he is too big, you can't hurt him."

"I have a move for him."

This was a streetfighter guy with no MA experience. I asked him to show me the move. I guess he showed me since he hadn't heard that your special move should be a secret.

So he jumped forward and got me in a front bear hug with out grabbing my arms.

-He squeezed real hard real quick
-Jammed his chin into my solar plexus
-hooked his lead leg behind my lead leg

The way he squeezed and pushed made it impossible to do anything save fall on the back of my head.

Later, in Taiwan I officially learned this move and others like it.

One of my students was a judo black. I did this to him and he said these moves are too dangerous and aren't allowed in competitions.
"Interesting." I thought.

18 Lohan and the 2nd rigid of PM both have "following step double palm strike"

If done well and succesful the opponent will be hurt.
If the opponent has studied these techniques he can apply moves from 18 Lohan as well as the rear bear hug.

Mantis 108,
Maybe you can post that 2 man clip that includes the first road of 18 Lohan.

I have started a translation page for this book on your forum.

[bamboo_ leaf]

[mantis108]

Interesting stories and thanks for the reminder. I will check on the translation page thanks. I think it's a good idea. Good thinking on your part. *thumbs up*

The clip that you mentioned is on the emptyflower site, which is one of the best Xingyi sites. The link is

Empty Flower

Scroll down to click on the Quicktime button. It will lead to a page. Click the thumbnail of the rear bear hug (young guy performing the hug and the old master counter). Actually that counter is Road #1 in 18 Lohan as Tainan mentioned to me before. It is without the groin strike and one needs to be pretty strong to perform it if the hug is secured.

Mantis108

[EARTH DRAGON]

108, Thank you for referring back to my post in your explaination.

Tainan, in my defense I would like to add that I had no idea what I was expalining had anything to do with the lohan Gong.. I dont even have any knowledge of it.

Strangley enough I was taught several real life situations when I first got into Bar bouncing and security by vary well known cooler, Hutch.........(kinda of like patrick swazy in roadhouse but years before the movie), but he taught us how to get out of many situations in quick time without hurting the person and to avoid law suits. This included simple joint locks, eye contact and proper talking to drunk people.

I am just glad to know that what I was taught several decades ago was taken from somewhere so respectfully. I had no idea where it came from . I just thought that hutch created things from his own experience..... you learn something new everyday thanks

[PaulLin]

ED,
Only Shyun knows where they came form and won't tell. That part is 18 Lohan, and the foot on the calf part is form ShuaiChiao. In ShuaiChiao that was called ChanTui. With proper train and add elbow control, you can throw him off on his back.

But first, for quick break out, you can apply ChinNa on the fingers. You will find that no matter how the hand grib is done, either one pinkey or thumb will for sure be on top. That 2 fingers is where you can apply ChinNa on.

The other one is with elbow control, once the elbow is controlled, he can't sqeez you nor pick you up. after that, you can go for a small trip(chian tui) or medium throw with calf wrap (ma huaw bieh tze).

If in front without arm lock in, bung can be applied. with arm locked, la can be applied. But if your stance is not firm enough(not enough drill) you can't throw.

[mantis108]

No need to thank me. You make some good points there. You deserve the credit. I merely pick up on the momemtum.

18 Lohan is really a gem in the PM system. It is a great non martial looking form (Jia) that teaches not only Qigong but also self defense with short strike format. Unfortunately, a lot of people was not allowed in on the "secret" which are but simple yet effective self defense moves. Even school kids can benefit from it against bullying. But in the Kung Fu world, it is lock up high on the shelves. Like you said you can learn similar stuff from non martial artist but PM as a sophisticate Kung Fu system has a uniquely organized way to teach self defense. This is why I love Praying Mantis Kung Fu. It is no doubt one of the most fascinating systems in Kung Fu world. It is high art!

Hi Paul,

Great post as usual.

Regards

Mantis108

[draco]

Thanks for the comments keep them coming. I'd like to add a little that I have found reguarding my topic. I really think its right to breath first, (sometimes we forget) this will also give time for the attacker to wear themself down. Wrap the your foot around the calf (forgot about that) cannot pick you up or through you in this way, that is probably what the attacker will want to do.

Here are a couple more ideas. With breathing come your calmness to think of more things to do like; grab the fleshy skin of the belly, stick your thumbs or fingers into the floating rib area, stick your fingers into the ingruinal crease on either side or both, this could be done to male or female attackers. You never know when female wrestler/weight lifter will come up behind you. I'm not sure about a throw? I'd have to see, maybe using the fingers to gain control of the wrists, then with the elbow bent and used as a fulcrum. Then yes, I think that was being explained above.

Mantis 108, I could not get the video to work, I found the pic.

thanks

[EARTH DRAGON]

Paul lin, as I stated I did not learn anything like that from shyun. I learned it years beofre and actually had no idea about the 18 lohan.. is this the original 18 movements from DA MO?

also I would like to add that it is impossible to to apply chinna to the fingers if your opponet has grabbed just below your elbows you cannot use the forward motion of you arms from this grip.

I Do use the finger grab from a full nelson hold.... literally your hands are right next to his fingers , and your opponent always tires to interlock their fingers so that is the opportune time.

[PaulLin]

The history of 18 lohan kung I have no idea. Need to ask mantis108.

Also that grab below elbow where elbow can't bent, sond like I will get a hit on my groin already when the bear hug was done. I guess I wouldn't be able to do a thing after that.

There are different finger chinna technique applied to thumb then to pinky, the one you are talking about is on the pinky. On the thumb it will be like a "release button". It is one of the 36 basic ShiaoLin chinna taught by GM Han Chin Tang. It is called "Cha zhe meil sioan din chan qun."

[mantis108]

Hi Draco,

I am using Quicktime4 to view the files. If the problem presist, you might want to download another version of Quicktime.

Hi ED and Paul,

As for the history of 18 Lohan Gong. I know very little about it. I think Tainan is more up to par with it. May be we can open a different thread to find out more about it.

Mantis108