New/Old Rear Bear Hug Tech...

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

There are two variations of that movement. One is a kick and the other is a knee brace (tuck rt foot behind lt knee). In Bung Bo/Big Mantis it's done as a kick. I've seen Pong Lai's app for the move but I'll let them comment on it themselves. BTW, I have also seen the move done as just a cross step.

I've seen Little Mantis done as both a kick and a brace. A similar kick was also in another section of Little Mantis but was removed some time ago. Not sure why but it also appears in Say Lok. The difference in how it's executed makes it more viable than the kick in Bung Bo.

Now, the only usefulness I see for it as a kick is against a Chut Sing Ma where you shift your weight forward moving into the attack and stomping the knee of the straightened leg (ouch!).

Other than that I personally think it's weak and it turns your back too much to your opponent (unless it's a cover for a complete turn). Maybe someone else can jump in and convince me otherwise.

I think your use of kicking someone behind you is better than trying to kick someone along side of you. Actually, I just thought of a weird take-down scenerio for that move. It's a bit shakey though. Wow, now another one and this one makes more sense. Talk about hidden apps! Just need to try it on someone now. As you can probably tell I haven't researched Bung Bo or WL Big Mantis yet.

The knee brace can be a defend or an attack. We can discuss that too if you like.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Actually, since Pong Lai has multiple versions they may have other moves and apps. What I saw was like the Wah Lum version although I have seen other Bung Bo with different hands in that section which may alter the application.

I think that will be my new mission, to pick apart Bung Bo and Big Mantis. I'll start next year.

I kicked off a new thread to discuss Bung Bo apps so this thread can stick with rear bear hug defense.

[Frogman]

Little mantis opening move. This is with out a doubt a in close tech, makes sense to use this against a bear hug. A question I have is since I have thought of this as an app to the side how would you use it to the back. Sifu DS??
Seems to me that after the grab kick when you sink to the right you may be pulling your opponent on top of you. I will have to try this tonight and see if it works, as I think about it, your left leg can execute a trip as you rip them down. Right on!

Animal instinct, good point from both views. To lose control is a means to its own end. In nature true combat is life and death which is most likely why so many MA styles were developed around the movement of animals. The true test is to be able to fight with out thinking about your moves and using instinct. With practices you would hope that would be some form of Mantis. I don’t feel it is necessary to train 24-7 to achieve this. When practicing you have to push yourself. Some people work out five days a week and still do their forms at or below medium speed, with minimal effort. Even these practitioners should have some reactive movement that reflexes their training.


RibHit
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[sayloc]

frog

the main idea is to use the kick (rt foot) as a "mind lead" to momentarily distract him so you can drop the rt elbow down possibly below his grip (depending on how tall he is or how high he is grabbing). A head butt never hurts either. one or both of the blocking techniuqes could be used as rear elbow strikes to the rear or to wiggle free. Think about it. if the punch is coming straight in you could do an intercepting blockwithout exposing your ribs like that at least not that high. If it were an overhead technique you would have to expose your ribs with the blocking arm, this is not the case.

I am sure this is not why this technique was developed but when henry ford was working on his designs he wasnt thinking about you driving it to kung fu class either It is not even my system, so how would I know. Just making observations.

Her is another technique for you. If he picks you up from the rear, you can take your left foot and place it behind his left knee. This will help you locate his knee with your right foot for the kick. For those of you who think a right kick to the knee may help. Oh yeah, did i mention a head butt at the same time....

Have a good day frog

[Pilot]

I briefly skimmed thru the post but I tend to disagree as I often do (kidding guys!). I would say that there are too many variables to throw an answer out there.
For example:
1. Is it more than 1 person to worry about?
2. Is it a big person or small person?
3. Is he tall or short?
4. Do you want to disable or harm?
5. What part of him has presented itself?
6. Has he lifted you?
7. etc., etc.

There are too many answers to this question. There are finger/ wrist/ arm locks, several throws that can be done from this posistion. His legs, arms, and goodies can be a target (to break) if so desired. His head/ eyes/ jaw can be attacked, and fun nerve points to strike all around. All fun stuff.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Well Pilot I'll make it easy for you. Pick one rear bear hug scenerio and tell us how your style of mantis (which is ???) would defend against that attack. Name the form that contains the move if you can. BTW, you vary your defense depending on size and weight of opponent?

Frogman
If you like to grapple check this out. Rear kick to opponents right knee (he shifts weight to left) while grabbing his left forearm with your left hand and his left tricep with your right hand. Step to the right and twist right pulling him over your left leg. Hang onto the arm so you can get the arm lock. Same movement although hand positions are modified.

[flem]

hua lin
I hate to type, I type you a pm and your box is full , I'm in ageement in any case

That kick can be used against a straight knee, and as sayloc said as a distraction. But i feel it's best used to attack the ankle instead of the knee., body mechanic wise more power can be delivered downward.
Oh, one more thing, and one you'll have to try to appreciate. If you follow that movement by untwisting into a horse stance then it is a leg chin na. The opponent facing you in a left foot forward stance, the "kick" (right foot) is hooked around the opponent's ankle, when you untwist, the movement torque's their knee causing them to go down, but you have to have a strong hook on their ankle, try it, you'll like it.

[Pilot]

Hua Lin Laoshi

Hmmmmm. Lets just say the guy is stupid (after all he is grabbing you in a bear hug from behind). He grabs you with both arms around your chest with his head straight up. You could head butt to his nose, there are several body maneuvers to break his grip to where you can deliver an elbow or even spin to face him. You can bend forward and either let him fall over you or grab a leg. You can kick shins, top of his foot, his goodies, his knees, etc. You can trap his foot and push back. You can grab a hunk of thug and use as leverage. I haven’t touched on throws yet. It just depends on what he presents to you as a target. I am no expert by any means and I am still learning, but I’ve seen enough to know there are a lot of open doors in an attack. I haven’t seen anyone in a long time actually try that on someone unless his buddy was about to pound you from the front, and that would change your tactic. I do not remember ever being taught that tactic to attack or pin anyone in any style that I’ve taken. Maybe if the guy tucked his chin into your back and kneed you in your kidneys while holding you might possibly work? I do know in wrestling they start out in that position some times. That is just one of those fun things to play with in class during free time.

[Pilot]

Follow up...

style of mantis (which is ???)

Currently 8 Step Preying Mantis

BTW, you vary your defense depending on size and weight of opponent?

Yes I do consider that. It may just be me but when working out with different people of different sizes, I’ve noticed that some moves do not work well on different people because of body shape and size. It is just physics. Have you not noticed this?

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Pilot
I've noticed that adjustments are necessary but to have separate defenses depending on height and weight (except for extremes) adds too much complexity.

If height => 5' 8" and weight => 180# then defense A
If height => 5' 8" and weight < 180# then defense B
If height < 5' 8" and weight => 180# then defense C
If height < 5' 8" and weight < 180# then defense D

Anyhow, I think your missing the spirit of the discussion which is to explain how your style defends against a rear bear hug. We aren't looking for generic ideas of things to do. We just want to see how the different styles approach this situation.

It's easy to reel off a list of POSSIBLE things to try but what does Ba Bu teach you and if it's in a form then name the form.

"there are several body maneuvers to break his grip"
That's what we're trying to find out. What body manuevers does 8 Step teach that will break the grip? Details please.

I think this is similar to the concept of training forms and techniques but using generic kickboxing when you fight. Why would you train all these moves and forms if you're going to use generic Karate (yep, I said Karate) in your self defense?

BTW, I never saw rear bear hug taught as an attack in either but street fighters do it and MMA/grappling guys do it so you should have a defense for it.

flem
I made room in my PM box. The kick you describe is the deleted kick in LM and also the kick in Say Lok. It's done low and with the heel. Kicking across and behind, for me at least, is very weak and anyone with a decent stance will shrug it off.

GBL's description of using against the side step puts you in a better position to deliver a strong kick. As done in Bung Bo I think it's weak. Twisting the upper body opposite lower body takes away from the kick (and hands). Just my opinion.

[18elders]

I agree, there are many different variables to think of.
When i would do a bear hug on someone, i never stand square behind him, i always have one leg in front, turning my hip to protect the jewels and also gives me more stability. Only one leg is exposed but it is not directly behind his leg, if he lifts up his leg to try a kick or stomp to my foot, it is easy to toss him as he is on one leg.

Yes, i also think your defense will depend on the size and strength of your opponent.
If you get some 6'4'' 300 pound guy lifting you up and squeezing the life out of your chest, it is a bit different than a 5'7'' 150 pound guy putting a bear hug on you.

I know a guy who competes in the strong man competitons, i think if he got ahold on me he would be able to crush my ribs easily.

[Pilot]

Hua Lin Laoshi

I don’t mean to sound argumentative and I meant no offense, but I think that is the spirit of 8 Step Kung Fu. It is not what do you do for a straight punch, or what do you do for a sidekick. It is what he has left vulnerable or open to attack and where you are in relation to him. Even in training, the attacker is almost irrelevant as far as what he must do so that I can do this maneuver or throw. If you are practicing a certain throw and you need his left arm, then you do anything you want to get the arm you need. When practicing throws is friendly sparing, you attack depending what you can get based on what he leaves open and your position in relation to his. Therefore, as far as I know, 8 Step doesn’t have a bear hug maneuver, but I have a long way to go in this style and a lot more to learn (i.e. I don’t know even half of this style). As far as describing some of the techniques, they sort of frown on us students giving out advanced info. I guess it makes it a little mysterious or maybe it is a tease to get people to join.


18elders

Yea I know what you mean about the strong guy. I guess the real trick is in not letting them get a hold on you.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I appreciate your comment and understand that each situation is unique. I don't mean to direct this at you but in general, I think throwing out generic possible responses could be viewed as an indication the the person either doesn't know or hasn't really thought about it.

Now, I'm not trying to start an argument here but all the things you mentioned are in your style and are regularly practiced?

The reason I ask is because, to me, they are generic ideas that you can find in any MA school or magazine. Nothing you said seemed very style specific to me. This is why I view it as similar to the concept of learning a style but sparring with generic kickboxing techniques.

There are numerous threads in this and other forums that question why you don't see people using their style when sparring. I'm curious as to whether the same is true for self defnse moves.

The Wah Lum defense I mentioned is practiced in the form (Little Fan Cha). When are your suggestions practiced?

BTW, I'm still interested in hearing about the body movements to break the grip if you're free to explain. I understand if you can't since Wah Lum is also a bit on the secret side. Giving out technical info to non students is frowned on. I only do it to offset some of the complaints made against us.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Well flem, looks like this thread is done. I'm surprised none of the mma lurkers didn't jump on this.

Maybe I'll throw this out in the main forum and see what other styles have. I have to admit that I'm somewhat shocked at the lack of technical responses. Stuff like this is the basics in some of the Karate schools I've attended.

PM me if you find anything else in the forms.

[Frogman]

Just for the record I was told that the opening to LM is a defend to the left, and that the right leg is a support not a kick. I was shown the app and tried both ways. I had a hard time using it against a bear hug. Yes that’s right I was shown an app, I guess all you have to do is ask.


RibBlast
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