the definition of fa-jing

[bamboo_ leaf]

Really didn’t want to comment but I found it interesting the different views.

It feels different because the yi has preceded the push; in a sense your body is just following the intent and energy of the other. This is what Z felt; there is no sensation of force applied. This is very different from using any type of bone alignment.


A very lite touch but strong mind is needed for this. When you can do this it really feels effortless for both the one pushing and the one receiving it. it can be long or short, the better the person the less movement seen.

[Sam Wiley]

Yeah, I'd say that's kind of a middle ground, like Bagua's palm method that is a combination between the two.

More than likely, in a self-defense situation, that is the type of strike that's going to be used, since a great deal of techniqie is lost under pressure.

Does the power shake you right down to your center, or is it just a more poweful push? I'd say that if it were a more powerful push, it's more middle ground, but if you're shaken right down into your center it was qi. I suppose that a really good master would also be able to still have a strong push while maintaining the internal power. The problem is that it's not necessary (or shouldn't be, theoretically) to send a person flying at the same time, as they will feel the power and recognize it if it is there without being shoved so far. I guess the reason people do it this way is because people equate really powerful martial arts with a lot of strength or else achieving the same or greater results with no effort.

Rant:
Another problem is with translation, as Zantesuken has said. For instance, in Grasping Sparrow's Tail, there is a posture many call "push." The actual name of the posture is Press. The movement is not necessarily used to push someone. Take note of the elbows. When you site back, your elbows open up a bit, and then when you Press Forward you squeeze your elbows in, which rotaes your palms slightly. The palm rotation happens because this movement is representative of a strike to the pectorals, and the correct direction for the strike is in opposing circles. So you sit back, turning slightly to the left, and your mind should be blocking a right punch and pking to the throat with the fingers (for an easy example). Then you come forward with the press, and your left palm strikes the right pec as it turns counter-clockwise as your right palm turns yin, and then your right palm turns yang and strikes in a clockwise manner to the left pec as your left palm turns yin again. The next movement of the form, Sit Back Ready wit hSnake Fingers, follows on from this movement, with the left hand blocking a right punch by sliding up the arm and then the right fingers thrusting forward, then a sit back. Now in the Old Yang style, the same posture of Press Forward is done after two rising elbow strikes, so the palms crash downward, similar to the tiger movements of Xingyi. In the original version of Grasp the Sparrow's Tail, the Press is not a push at all. While the application I was taught was a double wrist lock shoving his wrists back into his belly, I often think of it as jerking the wrists and striking to the tips of the floating ribs, so it's more of a Press or a push that way.

Nowadays we have Push Hands, but hte original Tui Shou methods were not push/pull type exercises. They were more akin to structured sparring or two man drills. Dan Docherty says that originally they were not even call "pushing" hands, but other names, like scraping hands and striking hands. That jives with what I have learned of the original methods and their evolution into today's pushing hands exercises.

Nowadays, everyone equates Taiji skill with pushes and pulls, but there really are none in the art. Pushing and pulling is a basic skill and you do not need martial arts to learn them. But what do we see at demonstrations of skill now? Pushing. When a teacher wants to demonstrate power or pretty much anything, he pushes someone. But what do you do in a fight? YOU DON'T PUSH AT ALL! You punch, kick, slap, poke and whatever, and generally try to do as much damage as possible. You don't push. And I have yet to see two people, or to experience this myself, really fight and I mean really fight, who fight and one person defeats the other without hurting him. Why? Because that's bull, foisted on people who don't want to get their hands dirty by learning to really fight, who want to believe that they are going to be able to win a fight with a few easy lessons, some dance moves, and by pushing and pulling without really hurting anyone.

That's the pushing problem in a nutshell, and why I don't see how pushing someone across a room proves anything other than the fact the one person enjoys shoving and another enjoys being shoved, unless you count a demonstration of proper body mechanics and good leverage, which definitely come into play there.

End Rant.

Thank you...don't forget to tip your waitress.

[Zantesuken]

i don't think a lot of people realise the severity of internal damage in the definition of sam wiley's. too severly damage someone like that is purely stupid. i would never issue that. and to someone who sent me a note. those who only believe that fa-jing cannot send a person flying back has only experienced only a bit.

basically the pushing isn't purely physical. when you practise tai chi you are developing ging in your movements so your punches, pushes, everything seems more powerful. added with chi yeah it feels different. i could see the si suk's hands stop but i kept on moving back as if there was an invisible extension pushing me. quite cool.

and sending a person flying back without harming them is not only impressive looking. you send them away without hurting them. the people who train purely to have the ability to cause internal damage no matter what they say elsewise will easily lose their skill and will be very limited in their training.

[brassmonkey]

Sam bravo on another series of classics postings. You should really write an online book then whenver someone comes up with a question of fa jing, dim mak etc. u post the link the appropriate chapter instead of rewriting your epics.

[Zantesuken]

and just saw sam's thing.

that's just your perception of fighting. true there are punches in a real fight but also you can push. just because you aren't at that level doesn't mean pushing isn't there. and striking hands no matter what there is the point of sticking to the other person. same with push hands. if you fight and all you do is strike and so on you'll be screwed when you come to someone who can actually stick and return your power.

[Zantesuken]

ah hate posting again but the peng jing aspect is still jing even if it is whatever. and it's not proper alignment. she simply raises her hands and i can't push it in no matter what angle i go from.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Where to begin?

Push hands as I understand it is to develop skill, the skill of listening, sticking, following releasing. there is much more but this is the basic idea.

Did I miss something along the way?



“Nowadays, everyone equates Taiji skill with pushes and pulls, but there really are none in the art.”

this seem kind of confusing, i think drinking tea would help.

[Sam Wiley]

Well, let me put it this way. You are in high school right now, and you can push all you want because things aren't that serious. But the first time you get into a bar fight or get jumped because you have to walk through the ghetto and you're the only white guy around for miles and are wearing a pair of Nikes...I think you get the point.

Saying that you would never do the kind of damage I'm talking about is naivety. If you want to risk your life by simply pushing someone and trying to look good, well, it's your life to waste.

I keep reading posts of yours that say that people who train like I do will not develop real skill. You are wrong. And besides that, you have yet to present evidence supporting your claim. It doesn't matter whether or not you look "cool" when you dispatch a person, as long as you can. When I once used a posture from Bagua to throw someone at a party (well? he wanted a demo of Bagua) called Old Man Fishing, neither he nor anyone else complemented me on a great hip throw or an excellent technique or anything else. The only words that came out of their mouths were, "how the Hell did you do THAT?" They never even saw it, and he only remembered throwing a punch and then having to pick himself off the floor. I'd much rather have people not know what I did than be able to identify it. So you keep on trying to look good, and I'll keep on being the guy nobody even knows studies martial arts when they see him fight and win.

I demonstrated a one inch punch once to someone who didn't believe i could do it, and the phenomenon was very similar to what you describe happening to you. I hit him, and my hand moved only a small distance, yet he flew back about three feet into a tree. It may have been cool for you, but he found it quite painful.

Again, I do not train to be a martial artist, I train to defend myself. They are two different things.

Brassmonkey,
Thank you. I've thought of that, just so I won't have to type so much. But every time I try it, I get writer's block. I have three articles in the works for Gary Romel's site, and always get writer's block when I try to add to the content.

[Sam Wiley]

Bamboo Leaf,
Yes and no. Tui shou teaches what you listed. Plus it teaches body usage for fighting, without actually containing techniques. There are also training methods that you can use along with tui shou to correlate that body movement with fighting methods. Push Hands does not, of course, teach you to push and pull, and nor can it be used for fighting as is it practiced. Yet we see so many people out there saying that Taiji's repetoire of techniques is pushes and pulls, and when asked for technique, they demonstrate a push hands movement.

I only brought up tui shou because I was on the subject of the posture commonly called "push."

[brassmonkey]

Your welcome Sam. Don't let Bamboo troll your thread here, you start listening to him and you might become as watered down as the art he practices. There was an article a few year back by your teacher concerning using Tai Chi for anti grappling do you happen to know the mag and issue of this?

[Nexus]

In all of these definitions, you've externalized your understanding to a physical means by which the actualization of the process occurs in energetic means. What's a push and a pull when broken down into energetic terms? What's a fa-jing broken into energetic terms? I can split somone with my left hand on the lower back and right arm coming accross in a ridgehand attitude without ever using fa-jing and easily break their back. These methods could be thought of as pushing as I am using a peng attitude and waist power to achieve this type of a push of front and back towards one another. Or the method could fa-jing and split the energy front and back. What ends exactly are you working towards with all of these definitions? I feel that an attempt to explain a concept such as fa-jing in laymen terms is an exercise in mental masturbati0n.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Whew!! Slow down, guys !! i think there is room in the Art for many perspectives, a well structured, firmly intended upper-cut can be as internal as a "one inch punch".. or a crisply executed single-whip.. It is my experience that Tai Chi is applicable at every level of conflict, that ultimately the individual expresses the elements of Tai Chi in many ways, many not found in the "Form".. The Form is just a training tool, Tai Chi permeates every aspect of life..

It is also my experience (those who know me understand) that Tai Chi principles together with Chin Na will handle almost any situation.. i could bang fists and heads in a heated exchange, my opponent(s) may fall, they may get up again.. Chin Na allows one to incapacitate an opponent and move on to the next..Tai Chi enhances that aspect of the Arts to a level that the Chin Na is difficult to perceive, and the result difficult to overcome..

That one fighter finds himself (herself) at home in the "dominate and destroy" aspect of the Art, is simply "their Way".. That another fighter finds their center in more subtle expressions is no better nor worse.. just different.. In the end, what works for the individual is just that.. Simply because one doesn't see it the way another does, doesn't assign some cosmic validity to either.. Tai Chi is expansive, encompassing, and evolving.. lets not confine it too much..

Oh, just for the record.. i, personally, find Tai Chi supported by Chin Na to be a superior response to the "punch and kick" attacks that we usually face.. and highly superior to weapon attacks (well, up to the venerable hand-gun)..

Be well..

[bamboo_ leaf]

Z, a little of topic sorry for this.

“As watered down as the art he practices.”

Mmm, water can be very useful, must be the tea I drink.

A few words.

Many people post and make really broad statements like the one above or in reference to all or most TC is wrong my teacher and me have the only true TC.

I just find it odd that we seem don’t hear much from the Chinese people who the art came from derogating what others practice, as we do from other non-Chinese people for the most part.

The most I’ve ever heard people say in the Chinese community here is that “this is not TC” or something along those lines. They pretty much respect others ideas of TC even though they may not agree with them completely. None are out to save the world from the chi huggers or new agers. They pretty much ignore them and practice their art as they know it.

i would be carfule about something that is said to be waterd down, try to keep an open mind, many people drown in calm waters.

[Sam Wiley]

Brassmonkey,
Sorry, I only have one magazine with an article written by Erle and it isn't about that. But he does have a book with some info on how to beat grapplers. The title is "How to Fight a Grappler...and Win" I think. The book contains useful fa-jing training methods for dealing with several different types of attacks, including attempted takedowns. There are also tips on applying sleeper and choke holds. It's a pretty good book.

I might normally say something about "watered down" Taiji, except I get the distinct impression Bamboo Leaf is getting good stuff. Besides that, he has practiced at least one other art I think (Mantis if I remember), and should therefore know what to look for in terms of actual martial usage.

I agree that Taiji's use of chin-na will be enough to handle almost any situation. However, I combine chin-na with strikes all the time. While my finisher might be a sleeper or something like that, I strike my way in to get it on. But I do not see that happening with multiple opponent scenarios, for which I train to strike more than anything. (Throws and stuff too, but no real holds.) Nor would I recommend strictly grappling against someone with a knife.

I define fa-jing in terms of the physical because some of the people I talk to here seem to not understand how to do it. They want to talk circles, but when cornered they say, "well, no I can't do it, but I still know how..." which doesn't make sense.

I very rarely talk about the actual "qi" part of it. I have a sincere belief in that side of it, but that does not help you acquire the ability, it merely expands the possibilities. If you want me to talk about qi disruptions and other energetic phenomena, then I can. Now, I am pretty loose with a definition of Split, because I understand the broad blanket people put it under. Occasionally I use the terminology as well. However, when I refer to Split, it is usually an attack on the elbow. I'd say the usual example of Split given is a sweep, though I can see where the split thing came from. Anyway, I am defining fa-jing in physical terms so that people can get it. It doesn't do any good to obscure their path with useless terminology and examples of something other than fa-jing.

[Zantesuken]

uh fa-jing is physical..... if there's no movement on the outside there will be movement on the inside. many martial arts, the POINT is the same but the METHOD is different.

and learning from books......ahhh it's ok but books that teach you how to get out of direct situations in my view limit your training in a way. if you learn to get out of something predefinately it becomes habitual. not that it's not good but i find it better for you to actually figure something out. i don't fight a lot but maybe once in a while i'll try something out and it works.

the only reason your restricting your definition of jing is because you haven't grasped the full meaning of it. i can't tell you exactly because my definition is in chinese but maybe sometime later i'll try. usually in my long posts they always get confused towards the end if you ever read them heh.