the definition of fa-jing

[Sam Wiley]

You have yet to translate anything. I am therefore forced to conclude that you are a troll, an observation I made about you on your second post. As I said, if you have something to share then do so, whether it is in Chinese or English doesn't matter. You keep making excuses, and that says to all here that you have nothing with which to back your argument except you racist remarks. You contend that I have somehow laid claim to the title of a high level practitioner when I have done no such thing. I have simply stated what I know and what I can do. If you think I haven't been practicing long enough to be able to make those claims then although you are entitled to your opinion you are incorrect. Besides that, you have not trained as long as I have, and therefore you do not have the experience to draw on to make your claims. The knowledge and ability I have so far gained has been through a lot of very hard work.

I have never claimed to be better, but I DO know exactly what I am capable of.

[Internal Boxer]

Zan you should be near the earth's core with the hole you are digging for yourself.

Booyakasha (Ali G)

[kboggess]

Wow, we're off and running...maybe I can offer some middle ground.

My wife is Chinese and my son is half--and my mother-in-law who speaks no English is living with us. So, I am going to jump in on the racist accusations.

First, let me share a couple of things about my background. I am one of Erle's US instructors. Yet I am also a Xing Yi student of a professor in China, Lin Jian Hua (who is a wu shu national grade judge). I get a taste of both worlds.

Zan, I have met Sam and he is really a nice guy. His postings may be interpreted as high sounding, but that is not his intention. His passion about the arts is what is coming off. And he has pierced the essence of what Erle teaches.

Sam and Chris, if Zan (and correct me if I'm wrong) is Cantonese and an ABC, then I understand what he is saying about the mistranslation of cultural concepts. I reread the posts to make sure. We as westerners do miss a lot. Trust me...I worked in Japan as a teacher for three years and currently move within the Chinese environment on a daily basis. I do not believe Zan is being racist. For example, many Chinese students in America do achieve more because they do work harder. That is an important value within their society. Not only is the kid's future at stake but the parent's reputation (and in conservative families the ancestors) as well.

Now, Zan, if you are still in high school, give yourself another few years. You will see what Sam is trying to say about pushing and the way taiji is interpreted today. I had stopped practicing taiji (24 and 42 count forms) until I ran across Erle's tapes, began corresponding with him, and pursued becoming an instructor. His stuff worked. It's hard to explain; you have to experience it to put Sam's arguments in context.

Keith

[Zantesuken]

choke up chi. that's one of the things i tried to translate. it didn't come out right so yeah you didn't take it seriously. take a closer look. i'm not trying to offend you. you're the only one taking offense.

ifyou really are a nice guy then i think we'd have misunderstandings. and i have translated a lot of stuff in all my other posts. maybe you just don't pick it up.

[kboggess]

Zan,

I know I'm deviating from the main line of dicussion, but I'm interested in the concept you mentioned.

Can you give the Cantonese for "choke up the chi" in English romanization? While my Chinese is far from fluent (learning Mandarin), I have a number of resources to explore the definition of the concept.

Keith

[Zantesuken]

haha ok i can't give the exact sounds but
choke your chi:
"guk(or gook) lei di(as in dee) hei"

[RAF]

Let me first make it clear that I am taking no sides on this issue but I have spent many months working on calligraphy translations with native chinese with significant martial arts experience and professional translation experience and another with impeccable martial arts experience and another with some martial arts experience but tons of expertise in shufa.

Until you have tried to take some of these concepts and put them into Western terminology you don't really have any idea of how much is lost and how much is indeed unique to the language and perception of the Chinese culture. There are concepts of Chinese language which have no direct counterpart in English language and in the attempt to make the translation, something is always lost.

Having said that, there is not necessarily a clearcut advantage to being simply Chinese and translating the martial arts terminology. My Chinese wife who has no experience in the martial arts finds that many of the translations or even the Chinese characters convey little meaning to her because she does not understand the wushu terminology. Some of these characters and ideas are unique to the art itself and it becomes like interpeting rather esoteric poetry.

Again, I grant you that Weserners will have great difficulties with many of the traditional Chinese wushu concepts. However, unliess you are well-versed in traditional Chinese wushu and also well versed in the language and historical culture (not just simply being educated in Chinese but beyond the normal curriculum in both Taiwan and China) translating wushu concepts is extremely difficult for even native Chinese.

Simply embodying the Chinese thought process is no guarantee of understanding wushu. However I do concede that I as a westerner will definitely have difficulty fully grasping these concepts, even with adequate instruction and translation.

Just something we all have to live with, both Chinese and Westerners and leaves us with a lot of room for disagreement.

[kboggess]

RAF stated:

"Until you have tried to take some of these concepts and put them into Western terminology you don't really have any idea of how much is lost and how much is indeed unique to the language and perception of the Chinese culture."

Excellent point. While your warning of confusion and misrepresentation is valid (if I understood your post correctly), I believe that we, as Westerners, should still try to grapple with such terms for the reason that you well stated above. How will we know that such translations of often esoteric concepts are difficult unless we try? In this case, we gain insight from the journey. Maybe is it the same as saying that the fish doesn't realize it's in water until someone pulls him out on a hook.

I guess the vagueness of such terms even among the Chinese wu shu community leads to the many interpretations of terms such as "fa jing". For example, Erle's fa-jing method is pretty specific. However, my Xing Yi teacher uses fa jing simply to describe any attacking method. Each of the Five Elements in Hebei style Xing Yi has a specific intention behind it and thus a slightly different power method (at least as I was taught--xing yi is not standardized). But all are termed in execution fa-jing in contrast to xu-jing, or gathering the energy.

Fun, eh?

Keith

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

And.. there's the rub.. The difficulty of language, regardless of culture or nationality.. The "words" are not that which they point to.. First, the concepts and experiences we enjoy are, at best, difficult to internalize on an individual basis.. then, to expect clarity in language is futile.. all we can really do is point someone to a common experience and hope they derive the same experience as we..

Can i define "fajing"?.. no!!.. have i experienced it? i have experienced something beyond common muscular force, indeed.. i have been told that i express fajing well.. but i can't speak to the authenticity of that, since i can't even define it for myself..

We can transcend language, we can share experiences.. one on one, we "know" what's happening, we can be assured that something special has occurred when something akin to the descriptions of fajing rearranges our internal organs and energies.. but, to cast stones at one-another over the limits of languages is a waste of time and energy.. That being said, it is the only tool we have in this media.. with respect to others and their perspectives we can point to common experiences and possibly refine the verbage to a better signpost, to more clearly point to the desired experience.. BUT, the first stumbling block is a closed mind, one whose assertions are considered as the ONLY answer.. and, for whom, others are there either for agreement or ridicule..

I asked my mentor about fighting as a signature of progress, as a validation of Tai Chi's validity.. i asked if we should advertise Tai Chi as a fighting art.. paraphrased response: people who talk fight still not comfortable with fighting.. until they comfortable, they need to hear self sound comfortable.. when comfortable with fighting, then you can learn the real secrets, living.. while still learning how to fight/win, people show fear as talk.. too busy trying to fight to learn how to win with grace, honor and dignity.. winning easy, winning with grace, honor and dignity not easy.. (i add with compassion, too).. he said, Fajing is someting you do, not say.. (he then made a quick motion and i felt my liver gate collapsing).. see.. DO..

Fajing is same in Chinese as in english.. ya just gotta DO it..

just another perspective from the Farside.. be well..

[RAF]

Kboggess:

My post was not to discourage anyone from trying to understand and translate the concepts. Fa-jing was only one of many and fa-jing is better experienced than talked about. My experience is primarily in baji/Chen and in baji fa-jing must be understood in relationship to xu-jing => fa-jing. Now did we sit around and discuss the meaning of this? No. We practiced a lot of specialized punching and alignment in the baji system. 10 years later we go to right an article and my teacher explains what xu-jing is to fa-jing. Ahhhh, yeah it makes sense since we have trained in it.

My whole bit of writing and translating just came about in the last 3 years. For a good 10 years we never sat around intellectualizing these ideas. In fact, in our instruction we don't do it now. Later my teacher might sit down or demonstrate something. Most of my training is experiential. And all this calligraphy translation is for books and articles on the martial arts.

We don't talk much about these things when we train and are in class.

With regard to other methods of training and developing fa-jing, this or any board is not the place to learn about it.

[blacktaoist]

Why don't you guys just practice Your martial art. Who cares about the definition of Fa- Jing.

argue over a word is not going to enhanced you guys skills, or is good for ones Yi. But practicing is.

I just don't see how knowing the meaning of a word, is going to do anything extraordinary for ones skill level.

But I guess people have their own way of doing things. Anyway best of luck.

Within life you will met many internal practitioners that will turn out to be a fraud and a mountebank.

[kboggess]

RAF:

Sorry about misunderstanding your earlier post. So you are saying that while pursuing such intectualization is OK, we should not put too much emphasis on it--especially to where it interferes with training and gaining experience?

If so, I agree. I am merely engaging in fei hua to pass a slow Friday by a little quicker at work.

In taking the whole thread into context of the original topic, I see that the definition of fa-jing must be defined more through experience than words. With that, I will heed Black Taoist's advice and head home for a good workout.

Keith

[RAF]

Kboggess:

I saw or took no offense in anything you wrote.

Intellectualization of the martial arts was not and is not a major part of my experience. My teacher did not know my name for the first year of classes (only about 12 in the class) and I was taught primarily through other disciples and checked by him (I've been in the system since 1986 or so and formally with my teacher since 1988).

Intellectualization or reflection on philosophy and mechanics is a part of the martial arts experience but not a substitute for the actual training and bodily knowledge you develop (in my formative years, Jou Tsung Hwa helped me see this and for that I thank him). In fact I use the martial arts to escape intellectualization (my job requires it although my background was strong blue collar, i.e steel and coal mining). When I am kicking and punching or walking the circle, I sure as hell am not thinking about fa-jing, hua jing or any other jing. Do 100 moving one punches and if you are thinking about fa-jing or any other jing, then you are not really doing it. My teacher is the one in the position to judge my alignment and jing development (even this is an over intellectualization of the process).

I didn't start this writing stuff until 1996 and with some reluctance. Truth be told, my teacher would have very little patience for these kind of discussions in class.

Sam and Zan are both right. There will be concepts that few Westerners will understand, however, they may have a bodily knowledge of such concepts and in the end, I would choose that rather than an intellectual knowledge of the martial arts (that is knowing the terminology of the art but not being able to do the art). Think about poetry. Would you rather have the actual experience that the poet describes or some abstract technically correct analysis of the poetry? Maybe we can have a little of both.

By the same token, simply being Chinese is no guarantee of understanding wushu or its depths. It just isn't that popular among the youth of China. In fact, basketball is probably better known among the teenagers of China. My own Chinese nephew knows more about basketball than I do and the reverse holds for martial arts. The parents were shocked that Westerners would even be interested in the depths of the art (moving beyond the Bruce Lee movies). Of course, they might just be acting polite or giving me face. Doesn't matter,does it?

[Zantesuken]

hmmmmmm well it's not like it's not popular among the youth of china. it's that it's gone out of practicality. nobody fights a lot anymore. police and stuff are around. but if you take a look at the people who do do wushu in china those guys are hardcore. they have verticals some more than nba players.

but i rethought the point about language. i agree that maybe 60-80% of the chinese language thing can be translated but when it does get translated it is a very direct/1 way definition. i chinese many many words have many different meanings some contradicting another. it's sort of like a pun in english except with a lot more depth.

and yeah someone posted it here before. to learn martial arts it just doesn't take the practise. there's also a mental part in it which isn't the yi or anything. it's just simple understanding.

[RAF]

Let me exit myself from this thread with one last post. My Chinese teacher, who taught himself English, has said something I left out because I forgot.

If you have correct alignment and you practice over and over and over and over, you body will experience the concepts we speak of. Martial arts is not unique to the Chinese body experience. All concepts are abstractions from experience. If you practice it over and over under the eye of someone who knows, then what you label the felt body experience doesn't matter, for the labeling is nothing more than an abstraction and attempt at describing the felt experience. When two people agree on some subjectively felt experience they label it and somehow we get tricked into thinking that the concept is indeed objective.

I think understanding the language may speed up the learning curve for some. But Blackdaoist is right, too much talk and too little practice makes for bad martial arts.

Until the next time, Ciao!